p3d
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Posts posted by p3d
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2 hours ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:
I reckon there’s nothing more certain that the Irish and tinkers arriving at Stranraer , working there way across the border highways to the north east of England and the west coast of cumbria. ( remember in up until the 1800s Whitehaven was a huge port for England , only biggered by Liverpool, Bristol and Southampton if I remember rightly ) industrial places for employment via foot , caravan with family’s , dogs etc in tow.
The entire set of northern terriers , the border, the Dandie dinmont, the bedlington , the Lakeland and ergo, the patterdale will be the descendants of the glens , Irish and Wheaton’s brought over, localised and infused into the small dogs already there.
Just my opinion but looking at some of those pics , that just reinforces it
They may have been crossed a long time a ago but the Northern terrier goes back further than any breed that the Irish developed.
The Wheaten, Kerry and Glen are the same dog, just separated for coat colour and a dwarf gene in the Glens. Even early photographs show a dog that was too big to go to ground. The names are made up, there was never any terrier bred in the Glen of Imaal.
The Irish terrier we can see in early photographs and documents was a very small dog, around 6lb to 12 lb. Yorkshire terrier size. If really game then a handy digging dog. The Show people bred in a Welsh terrier to get the shape they wanted and the size increased. The dogs were 28lbs in a matter of 20-30 years. Useless as a digging dog.
As in Southern England the only real working Irish terrier is a small white Jack Russel type. Several very old paintings show this type, long before Rev Russell started hunting.. Probably bred and worked for Fox hunting by the Irish landed gentry just as in England. Those terriers were probably drafted around as often as Hounds were between these wealthy men. Over and back the Irish sea with hunting bloodstock.
If you look at Dobsons rough looking tykes, Prick ears, scrappy coats, they may have been this old Irish - Yorkshire terrier style. Not comparing his dogs to the shite show pets today but the original type.
The Bedlington was too big, The first Borders look exactly like the first Irish, Welsh,and old Black and Tan type. That is the nearest we can get to a root stock as far as I can see. JMO
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20 hours ago, darbo said:
Two excellent photographs, the Irish terrier from 1900 could easily pass for a working dog today. Pity the show crowd destroyed them.
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2 minutes ago, Aussie Whip said:
Sealyham/staff?
Could be, if you look at the dog "Tinkers Double" it has a square head like that.
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2 hours ago, Rabbit Hunter said:
Good pics P3D but still we’re no clearer of when black dogs (as we know them) began to breed true to type are we?
ps. Smithy was born ‘73 and died ‘86.
RH, No, we are no clearer. There are men who have a good understanding of what happened. One guy is writing a book, it should shed light on that time, 1950 to 1990. Hopefully it will get published soon.
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Carlisle Otter Hounds1880, couple of white terriers in front.
Peter Hills, an 1870s Yorkshire gamekeeper (Anyones guess what is in that white terrier)
Early Staff, 1910, if you shaved a Wheaton/Kerry they have a head like this.
Tinkers Double, An early Sealyham.
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On 01/06/2019 at 22:05, Rabbit Hunter said:
P3D, what year (roughly) do you think the first black terriers, as we know them today, appeared?
RH,
Some early photographs with Black terriers,
Before 1930 above.
Dobson on the left.
Kendlal Otterhounds 1930
Spartacus, Great Grandson of Smithy who was born 1972 so this must late 70's , maybe 76-78
Note Gould calls them all Black Fell types.
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45 minutes ago, eastcoast said:
Could you not ask a less emotive question, such as how to put an end to war and world poverty? Anyone trying to answer your question could well start a war of words on here :-).
Obviously there will be bull and (God forbid) Russell in some terriers around today that we would class as Patterdales. There will also be men who hand on heart can say that they have had Patts for generations and added nothing to the original dogs that they started with.
Black and smooth terriers were around before the famous dogs of Mr. Braey and Buck, as we all know, but I think most would agree that the whole "Patterdale" thing started with them. What was in their dogs? Why were they seen to be an improvement on the Fell, Border/Lakeland or Russell types that everyone had else prior to this?
If anyone knows then they have never shared that knowledge with those that don't. Not publically.
Well said, no one really knows what was outcrossed several generations back, never mind 100 years.
No matter what the colour if they work is all that matters.
(But we can still have some craic ribbing each other..)
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Nice looking dog.
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3 hours ago, rob284 said:
Some difference in the head shape of those bedlingtons to today’s type, the dogs in the picture are well put together, near border like
Thats what I think as well. Cant see how this type would create Dobson’s Topsy. That Bedlington photo is about 30 years before the Topsy photo.
This is the advantage of photographs. If we can get our hands on them they give us a good idea of how the strains developed. One question jumps out of the Dobson photos. Why did they need to bring in White terriers from the South?
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3 hours ago, rob284 said:
A black dog doesn’t need a smooth coat to be a patterdale.
We will have to come up with a new name for the smooth black dogs. How about a Nuttall terrier.
Only joking, I thought the general view was that the smooth blacks were Patterdale and the wire haired were Fell.
Correct me If I am wrong.
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A very old photograph of a Bedlington, the man is Joseph Aynsley, a stonemason who is credited as the founder of the breed.
Compare the size of his stonemasons hand with the head of the dog on the right.
That is some lump of a dog, a wide skull with a pronounced stop.
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7 minutes ago, Rabbit Hunter said:
P3D, this is from Jocelyn Lucas’s Hunt book. I didn’t realise the term ‘Patterdale’ had been in use in them days?
RH,
But check out the photograph of the "Patterdale Terrier" that he is referring to. Not a smooth black dog, the complete opposite.
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11 minutes ago, eastcoast said:
To me Topsy looks like a Sealyham type
I agree, an earlier version when they were small enough to work otter.
John Edwardes favourite Dusty, in 1880 with her coat stripped.
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The great things about old photographs is they can be used to trace a terrier line as it develops (or not).
Arguably the best known of the Coniston huntsmen, Anthony Chapman began as whipper-in to Ernie Parker in 1932
and became huntsman from 1944 to 1976 when he retired.
This photograph shows "Chappie" in later years so the date must be around the 70's.
Two things to note, the white terrier and the Slate coated "Parks style terrier" on the couples.
More white terriers smooth and wire-haired at Porters feet with the E&E 1906.
If Topsy is the base of Dobsons breed of terriers then what breed was She?
The photograph in an earlier post of Lord Lonsdale with the smooth black terrier would lead you to believe that his kennel would use that type.
But Below we see that his terriermen were using white terriers.
Hard to argue with photographs.
A great source of old images can be found here.
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Wire Fox terrier eleven 1897
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35 minutes ago, Rabbit Hunter said:
P3D, what year (roughly) do you think the first black terriers, as we know them today, appeared?
RH,
You can find photos of smooth black terriers back 100 years, but there is no mention of a line of smooth coated dogs as we see them today before the 70's
All of the photographs of working terriers appeared to be Fell/Lakey/Border type (Red, B&T, Black, White) or Russell/Fox/Sealyham type. (White with hound type markings).
The hunting writers of the time (pre 60's) mention every line and type, but I have never seen any mention of a smooth coloured line of working terriers.
Dogs like Smithy and Nigger seem to have come along and were bred to hundreds of bitches, then the black smooth line took off. 1970?
I have in front of me a list of terriers entered in a working trial in the 80's in Cork Ireland, there are all of the working types you could think of, but no patterdale or Smooth black dog. I hunted back then with men who had contacts in the UK. They brought over many types. I never saw a smooth black dog back then. Do you think if there was a line of great smooth black dogs available that they would not have tried them.
Breay and Buck did not breed that line, they outcrossed too often to lock in any defined type. it was someone after them. JMO
Is that dog on the left Smooth enough, compared to the other 4 fell types?
Did the smooth coat come from a dog like this crossed with a fell?
Don't want to go off in a tangent from B'11s post of old photos.
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On 31/05/2019 at 20:12, Bosun11 said:
Found some oldies i've never seen before, hope they are of interest...
Top photo is class, nice looking terriers.
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Willie Porter 1920, still using a mixture of terriers, 30 years and still no line of terriers as told in "The Fell Terrier".
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withhisEskdalePack.jpg.7bc7ce0ecf3cd71a3fbe4ae4778a8b44.jpg)
From 1892 to his death Tommy had a mixture of all types of terriers. White, Border/ lakey types, smooth/Rough.
Like any huntsman, Good working terriers are hard to come by, back then and now. Use what works.
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KS
Go back that far and they were basically all from the same pot.
1906 Tommy Dobson with a White terrier (Marking on head and tail stem, where have we seen that before)
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Same litter would be split into Kerry Blue, Wheaton and Irish, the B&T could pass as Irish back then. The RED coat came later.
Irish Terrier 1910
Kerry Blue/ Wheaton were trialled up to the 60's. and some later but the working numbers were not being produced.
The Staffs became the dog of choice. (Love the way the staff in the centre is waiting his chance to cling that Kerry Blue.)
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White terriers of old
Kilkenny, Ireland 1908
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On 20/07/2018 at 17:33, grompz said:
This letter was first published by DB plummer in 1982 issue of shooting times, apparently col hancock had mentioned the influence of the irish terrier on the fell/ Lakeland terrier, some years ago the scarteen foxhounds bred a smooth or slope coated fell terrier of the type developed by bray and buck. these terrriers were aptly named by the cumbrians who imported them, would any of you older terriermen, be able to cast any light on the origin of these terriers,probably now a non existent breed.
G,
The original Irish terriers came in different colours, Red, Black and Tan etc.. see a photograph from 1910 below. Small rough terriers, probably not unlike the terriers all over these Islands at that time. IMO it is probably more correct to say that the dogs from both regions, Ireland and the North of England were crossed with each other. The case of which came first is probably lost to history.
The Scarteen Hunt appear to have favoured white terriers if the available photographs are to be believed.
John R Ryan around 1935 (the young lad standing in front) The terrier looks like a strong russell type. These can be found in the field today all over Munster in the South of Ireland.
Scarteen meet outside the old house around 1940? maybe even earlier. White terrier in front.
There is probably more evidence out there if anyone has access to the Hunt itself.
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14 minutes ago, W. Katchum said:
Phone him an ask him??
Seeing as you think of yourself as a bit of an expert, I am asking you.
Did BN say it?
If you don'y know that is fine, let the post continue talking about Wheeler dogs.
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R I P... JERRY ALLEN
in Earthdogs & Working Terriers
Posted
Condolences to the Allen family on this terrible loss.
Jerry Allen was one of the best dog men I ever had the pleasure to meet.
Not only was he knowledgeable about every aspect of Strong dogs, Hounds and working terriers but he was more than generous with his time to discuss and educate anyone who he met.
In Cork City Jerry was respected by all. His hounds and terriers made their mark and his sons are carrying on the great traditions that he fostered.
The White terrier line owes a lot to his intelligence and care in the way he bred and worked them.
Jerry joined the I.W.T.F. and his presence at any meet or show gave a level of support that was much appreciated during very hard times a few years ago.
R.I.P.