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#1 tommydeer

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 08:49 am

Time to open up a can of worms!!!

What are your views on all the management courses and schemes you can join and go on. I wanted to ask because hand on heart i really dont know what good theyve done. Before i get slated for that openeing sentance, YES, they have helped, no doubt. People with no clue, now have an idea.

Whats it all about though, this is just my OPINION. Im very fortunate to work with deer all day every day. Clients we take out range from having no paperwork to DSCL1, L2,A Witness to fully blown everything and hand on heart there is no great difference on quality of client and understanding of what theyre actually out for.

The last guy i took out had all his paperwork, had great pleasure in producing it all at will, made himself sound like Richard Prior then proceeded to miss a cwd at 80 yards off a bipod broadside, whilst following that up with a shot into the haunches at 120 yards off a bipod. his rifle WAS zeroed because i quickly had to grab it and shoot his deer for him. Its just an example, theyre not all like that i know, but there are a few.

Most the people ive met who are good, keen stalkers, who know what thyre doing find it all a waste of time, so this is why im asking for your views?

My biggest concerns are that you can go and grab someone from a city, give them a book and with a little bit of luck on the shooting they can pass L1 and L2 within no time at all.

Then comes up a piece of ground available, and they'll get the stalking because they offered more £££s!

Yes its great that you now have to have a qualification in order to get ground but someone might get it thats only ever shot 3 deer, whereas the guys that live and breathe deer stalking who are out when they can, havnt got a look in!...and then the deer commision/DI moan because there are too many deer!

Personally ive only got DSCL1 which i had to do at college, nothing more. My boss has 35 years involvment in deer management, hasnt got any paperwork! To think, he wouldnt have a look in on any piece of ground if he ever wanted it!

Fire away and tell me what you think

#2 reddeer1

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:32 pm

I think its an important point you are making Tommydeer.

In Ireland, the HCAP has just been introduced and any person, no matter how much
experience they have. My father has 20 years experience in deer stalking and was a
bit annoyed when he had to undertake this course. He aced both the written MCQ test
and the range test. I believe it is good for people new to the sport, as it provides them with an insight
into the different areas involved. Its a very contentious issue with many opinions. People often
complain (In Ireland) about the costs involved with doing the course, however, this is often not
justified because the amount it costs is probably reasonable considering the good quality kit people
tend to carry these days for stalking (Sauers, Zeiss, Steyr etc). Overall I believe it is a good initiative to improve novice
stalkers skills. I think the DSC 1&2 is brilliant in that you have to accompany a stalker and show
him your skills in the field :clapper: .

#3 wildfowler-2007

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 05:24 pm

Tommy,

I feel the same way as you i take my stalking clients out and see the same problems as you do.

I also have no paper work but i am lucky i have many parts of land that produce good deer.

I also think its unfair that you need your dsc1 and dsc2 to get new ground and ground from the commison

I say its all a cash making thing mate

Thank you

Regards

#4 2434me

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:23 pm

The DSC scheme does not make you a good stalker !
In the same way passing a driving test doesn't make you a good driver !

But there has to be a standard somewhere?

No-one is claiming that this scheme is perfect ,because it isn't . But it has to start somewhere and if we don't do it ourselves for ourselves............THEN SOMEBODY ELSE WILL !!!!

I have been taking clients out for twenty odd years , I have all the stories of crap and incompetence like the rest of you ,usualy by people who should know better .

And I passed my DSC two weeks ago . WHY? Because that is the way the world is and no amount of complaining is going to change it .

My main beef with the scheme at the moment is that there should be a recognition for professional stalkers as opposed to recreational stalking ??????? DSC3 ! lololol Yet another one I dont think so !

DSC1 and DSC2 Fair enough for recreational stalkers( there are some flaming good stalkers about ! ) and at least the newcomers actually have to kill something for DSC2 !

DSC professional for those out there who do do it for a living !Which would not mean doing three courses , but only one the DSC P. As long as you know your stuff you should pass it no problem .

There is no easy answer,and this thread could go on and on and on achieving very little .

Pass the course (its not that difficult! ) Then we can make ripples on the inside instead of outside where no-one will listen !

#5 tommydeer

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:37 pm

The DSC scheme does not make you a good stalker !
In the same way passing a driving test doesn't make you a good driver !

But there has to be a standard somewhere?

No-one is claiming that this scheme is perfect ,because it isn't . But it has to start somewhere and if we don't do it ourselves for ourselves............THEN SOMEBODY ELSE WILL !!!!

I have been taking clients out for twenty odd years , I have all the stories of crap and incompetence like the rest of you ,usualy by people who should know better .

And I passed my DSC two weeks ago . WHY? Because that is the way the world is and no amount of complaining is going to change it .

My main beef with the scheme at the moment is that there should be a recognition for professional stalkers as opposed to recreational stalking ??????? DSC3 ! lololol Yet another one I dont think so !

DSC1 and DSC2 Fair enough for recreational stalkers( there are some flaming good stalkers about ! ) and at least the newcomers actually have to kill something for DSC2 !

DSC professional for those out there who do do it for a living !Which would not mean doing three courses , but only one the DSC P. As long as you know your stuff you should pass it no problem .

There is no easy answer,and this thread could go on and on and on achieving very little .

Pass the course (its not that difficult! ) Then we can make ripples on the inside instead of outside where no-one will listen !



Thankyou for your response but i didnt start the thread to achieve anything. It was to get everyones views, as simple as that.

I understand what your saying though, it would beneficial if anything to have something to seperate the recreational guys to the professionals. Like you say though, trying to get some of the hardened professionals to take a course on deer management may be difficult & to be fair, why should they?

These are the things that should be talked about!

All the best!!

#6 2434me

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:59 pm

:good: Cheers ATB

#7 harry mac

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 12:04 am

http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub... Cheers ATB

Hi, I'm new to this forum, only found it today, so imagine my surprise when the first post I read is about summat I've been droning on about for years. The absolute futility of these courses.
I have hunted deer and wild boar in Germany where not only do you have to have a license for a gun (waffenbesitzkarte), but also a separate hunting license (jagdschein). In order to get a jagdschein a German citizen must undertake a course of study that would make some degree students sweat. The hunter then has to pass various exams and practical tests. None of this comes cheap and as a consequence Germany, a country with a long and world renowned hunting tradition, has less fieldsports participants than the UK. They also, along with France have a shocking safety record!
As far as I can see the various tests and qualifications serve only 2 purposes, to make fieldsports more exclusive rather than inclusive and to make money for the various associations that are meant to be supporting us.
Just to make it absolutely clear, I'm against them. However I'd be naiive to think that we are not well down the road to compulsory testing, we are, and it will be a severe blow to country sports as a whole because it won't just be stalking that requires certification, eventually it will be all country sports.

#8 BRYAN3

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 12:35 am

Hello Folks.
I think its a pity the way things are going with tests and licences
for just about everything.
However, surely its wrong that a city w banker can use his vast wealth to
buy land or shooting rights and arm himself and endanger other people just because
he fancies a new hobby.
Similarly he can walk into a hire shop or machinery outlet and purchase a chainsaw
and do all kinds of damage.
Yet on a building site you have to have a certificate to replenish the loo paper in the portaloo, unless your eastern european and then rules do not apply.

Its becoming a funny old world.

Bryan.

#9 steve0146

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 08:19 am

Hi,

I studied deer at Sparsholt College for three years, ended up with the National Diploma and the National Deer Stalking Certificate. Since then I have worked in Canada for the Fish and Wildlife Department. I'm now in the Army, based next to Bisley and teach the new recruits to shoot. However, when i recently tried to book some stalking, i was told i was not qualified or experienced enough as i did not have the DSC1. I contacted the BDS and all they said was i would have to do one of their courses. Its all a money thing.

#10 harry mac

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 08:47 am

Always bear in mind that the very first people to start calling for these tests were, themselves, unqualified, because the qualifications didn't exist, and it's always the same. The only reason these tests are called for is so that old stuffed shirts who have opinions like, "young uns today don't learn stalking like we did, they get it all too easy" get to keep us minions at the bottom of the food chain out.

In the begining there was the rich man. He looked out upon the country and sayeth unto the land agent, "find me an estate with deer so that I may stalk and slay them, and feasteth upon their flesh, wi me mates".
The land agent did as he was bid and rich man and his chums had good times.
In short order rich man came to realise that country estates needeth a goodly income to keep them running on an even keel and did say unto his ghillie, renteth out some stalking days and take chaps out on the hill, they will give unto us the sheckles and we shall gain great prestige amongst the shirts that are stuffed.
And, lo it was done.
It came to pass that eventually chaps hewn from rather rougher cloth could afford to come onto rich mans land and also partake of the slaying of the deer for in the intervening years the "poor" had prospered and become possessed of sheckles and leisure time in which they could be spent.
Rich man looked out once more on the land and perceivet that the poor were getting above themselves with the shooting of deer and grouse with guns and rifles that were not bespoke and made by the thousand. He thought unto him self and said unto the shirts that are stuffed, "perhaps there should be some sort of test". And, so it all began.

#11 tommydeer

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 09:31 am

Thanks for your views guys, especially Bryan and Steve. I feel as though youve certainly hit the nail on the head. How someone of vast experience cant get a look in on new ground because he hasnt got a DSC1. Yet someone who fancies themselves as a "country gent" on weekends with more money can scoop it up having sat in a classroom for a few days.

Lets be honest, with a little luck on the shooting, DSCL1 is really not that difficult to pass.

#12 flytie

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 11:52 am

Some of us are lucky and were born in the country! Some are less blessed.
Some of us trailing round after our dads, granddads and uncles get some understanding of the countryside and its wildlife. Some folks learn from books.

Some of us who have local contacts get asked to control deer, in my case fallow on two farms and a golf course, with hopefully more to come. Some folks can only wave a cheque book.

Now look at this from the other angle; If you are interested in stalking but were born in a city (bless), by dint of hard graft you have saved a bob or two and you want to try stalking. You apply for a FAC, and because you roll your correct trouser leg up and shake hands funnily, it is granted quickly. You can now go stalking with your cheque book.

If you are the bloke in the Forestry Commission office, are you happier to just lease our prospective city boy a piece of ground sight unseen? Or, would you rather he came to you with a document that proved he was less than clueless about deer ecology and shooting seasons, had some semblance of an idea of what a poorly deer looks like and knows the basics of gun safety. Bearing in mind that if it is proved he is a danger to the public you could well be sued! They are going to go with the man with the course every time. No brainer.

Is it right, no! But in the times we live in it is inevitable. People are ever more likely to sue!

ft

PS yes I did the DSC1, to help my FAC application (no conditions, open ticket from day one)

#13 BRYAN3

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 01:35 pm

Always bear in mind that the very first people to start calling for these tests were, themselves, unqualified, because the qualifications didn't exist, and it's always the same. The only reason these tests are called for is so that old stuffed shirts who have opinions like, "young uns today don't learn stalking like we did, they get it all too easy" get to keep us minions at the bottom of the food chain out.

In the begining there was the rich man. He looked out upon the country and sayeth unto the land agent, "find me an estate with deer so that I may stalk and slay them, and feasteth upon their flesh, wi me mates".
The land agent did as he was bid and rich man and his chums had good times.
In short order rich man came to realise that country estates needeth a goodly income to keep them running on an even keel and did say unto his ghillie, renteth out some stalking days and take chaps out on the hill, they will give unto us the sheckles and we shall gain great prestige amongst the shirts that are stuffed.
And, lo it was done.
It came to pass that eventually chaps hewn from rather rougher cloth could afford to come onto rich mans land and also partake of the slaying of the deer for in the intervening years the "poor" had prospered and become possessed of sheckles and leisure time in which they could be spent.
Rich man looked out once more on the land and perceivet that the poor were getting above themselves with the shooting of deer and grouse with guns and rifles that were not bespoke and made by the thousand. He thought unto him self and said unto the shirts that are stuffed, "perhaps there should be some sort of test". And, so it all began.





:clapper: Harry mac, well done ,that was brilliant,I loved the way you put that together.
I think that I would add that the second lot of folks who tend to call for tests are the plebs
at the bottom who gained their stalking the hard way. They are trying to reduce the competition
from others wanting to get in on the action. :hunter:

#14 tommydeer

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 01:49 pm

Always bear in mind that the very first people to start calling for these tests were, themselves, unqualified, because the qualifications didn't exist, and it's always the same. The only reason these tests are called for is so that old stuffed shirts who have opinions like, "young uns today don't learn stalking like we did, they get it all too easy" get to keep us minions at the bottom of the food chain out.

In the begining there was the rich man. He looked out upon the country and sayeth unto the land agent, "find me an estate with deer so that I may stalk and slay them, and feasteth upon their flesh, wi me mates".
The land agent did as he was bid and rich man and his chums had good times.
In short order rich man came to realise that country estates needeth a goodly income to keep them running on an even keel and did say unto his ghillie, renteth out some stalking days and take chaps out on the hill, they will give unto us the sheckles and we shall gain great prestige amongst the shirts that are stuffed.
And, lo it was done.
It came to pass that eventually chaps hewn from rather rougher cloth could afford to come onto rich mans land and also partake of the slaying of the deer for in the intervening years the "poor" had prospered and become possessed of sheckles and leisure time in which they could be spent.
Rich man looked out once more on the land and perceivet that the poor were getting above themselves with the shooting of deer and grouse with guns and rifles that were not bespoke and made by the thousand. He thought unto him self and said unto the shirts that are stuffed, "perhaps there should be some sort of test". And, so it all began.





http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub... Harry mac, well done ,that was brilliant,I loved the way you put that together.
I think that I would add that the second lot of folks who tend to call for tests are the plebs
at the bottom who gained their stalking the hard way. They are trying to reduce the competition
from others wanting to get in on the action. http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

I'll jump on that band wagon! Agree with Harry mac, more so after the way he worded it!

With Regards to flytie, exactly...look at it from the other side, BUT, remember we're now in the times of people jumping up and down about the amount of deer roaming our countryside. Rightly or wrongly in some areas the deer have been badly managed, some areas not managed.

Im not saying theyre responsible in anyway, but take the commision for instance. If theyre giving the ground to the guy with DSC1 and a wad of cash, over the guy with no money but 10 years experience of stalking, who will have a better understanding of culls and how to go about it, in my point of view, THATS A NO BRAINER!

#15 2434me

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 03:51 pm

It doesnt matter what you do in your spare time whether its Stalking ,golf or crochet !!!

There will always be someone with more money than you,who can pay for things they want .

Money has SOD ALL! to do with the reasoning behind the DSC scheme.

David Beckam has the same driving license as you do ,but that doesnt make him a better driver !!!!
Now look at the cars he can buy and you cant .

MONEY = Pointless arguement

The majority of DSC holders are NOT that rich bloke .That rich bloke is a smokescreen to stand on and winge from !

Its Not Fair !!! Its Not Fair !! BULLOCKS ! Thats life ,Get on with it !!


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