gnasher16 29,638 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Not sure why you felt the need to PM me Fence-Hopper, I would of seen the thread when I logged in! 8 lines back to one dog is incredible inbreeding, not something to be recommended nor encouraged, I wanted to make sure it wasnt a mistake, was kinda hoping it was. Still hope he gets a good home though. You really should learn a little about in/linebreeding before coming out with such a statement......there are sporting breeds that have dogs going back up to 20 times back to a certain good dog in its ped.....and there is simply no way these dogs would survive the sporting tests put on them if there was anything wrong with them......8 times back to a dog 5 generations back in the ped would be considered quite loose line breeding.....8 times back to a dog 3 generations back would be quite tight inbreeding.....do you even know how many gens back the dog thats been linebred on was ? Not to be recommended or encouraged ?....if that was the case some great dogs in all breeds would never have been whelped ! Link to post Share on other sites
rabbit runner 0 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Not sure why you felt the need to PM me Fence-Hopper, I would of seen the thread when I logged in! 8 lines back to one dog is incredible inbreeding, not something to be recommended nor encouraged, I wanted to make sure it wasnt a mistake, was kinda hoping it was. Still hope he gets a good home though. You really should learn a little about in/linebreeding before coming out with such a statement......there are sporting breeds that have dogs going back up to 20 times back to a certain good dog in its ped.....and there is simply no way these dogs would survive the sporting tests put on them if there was anything wrong with them......8 times back to a dog 5 generations back in the ped would be considered quite loose line breeding.....8 times back to a dog 3 generations back would be quite tight inbreeding.....do you even know how many gens back the dog thats been linebred on was ? Not to be recommended or encouraged ?....if that was the case some great dogs in all breeds would never have been whelped ! i couldnt agree more with you mate some people havnt got a clue Link to post Share on other sites
Dawn B 212 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Not sure why you felt the need to PM me Fence-Hopper, I would of seen the thread when I logged in! 8 lines back to one dog is incredible inbreeding, not something to be recommended nor encouraged, I wanted to make sure it wasnt a mistake, was kinda hoping it was. Still hope he gets a good home though. You really should learn a little about in/linebreeding before coming out with such a statement......there are sporting breeds that have dogs going back up to 20 times back to a certain good dog in its ped.....and there is simply no way these dogs would survive the sporting tests put on them if there was anything wrong with them......8 times back to a dog 5 generations back in the ped would be considered quite loose line breeding.....8 times back to a dog 3 generations back would be quite tight inbreeding.....do you even know how many gens back the dog thats been linebred on was ? Not to be recommended or encouraged ?....if that was the case some great dogs in all breeds would never have been whelped ! Should I? Find me evidence of ANY canine genetisist that agrees with that type of inbreeding and Ill gladly take back my comments. Post a copy of the pedigree, say 6 generations and Ill calculate the COI for you. Many "sporting" dogs fail too, its nothing to do with the fact they are inbred that makes them succeed! For what its worth, I never commented on the photo, I actually think its a nice looking dog! Link to post Share on other sites
david2363 42 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hope the little fella finds a worthy home. He could be very handy in the right hands. Dawn B - Do you have a proven track record in breeding working dogs? Link to post Share on other sites
blackpack 70 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 good luck allen the dog looks spot on not long till its ready for work etc deserves a good home mate ill ask around for you Link to post Share on other sites
Dawn B 212 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hope the little fella finds a worthy home. He could be very handy in the right hands. Dawn B - Do you have a proven track record in breeding working dogs? My genetics come from 22yrs in attending various seminars on canine and feline genetics, inbreeding, outcrossing and the canine athlete. I dont breed dogs, I do however take an interest in how they work, physical and mental capabilities dependant on inheritance and COI. Close matings cause problems, simple fact, some may be lucky, others will not, just not worth the risk IMO. I mean no offence, just how I feel, 8 lines to one dog is not good at all, but as I said I base my opinion on what I know, others will base their opinion on what they know, and at the end of the day, if the new owner is happy with it, then fine! Link to post Share on other sites
countrymaid 2 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Ive been breeding whippets for around 16 years now, when i i got started in the breed i was told by some of the old breeders to find a dog/line that i like and line breed to that for 3 maybe 4 generations then go out and use a different dog on the 3rd to 4 th generation then come back on the original line that you started with. Im now on my 6th generation of my own breeding and im almost there with what id like for the future. My type of whippet is the old fashioned type whippet of 30 to 40 years ago, poltescue, twelseldown, laguna the modern show bred whippet does nothing for me. Although when ive been over in Sweden Lure coursing some of the Swedish/American show bred whippets have been very sharp in the coursing field. Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 29,638 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Should I? Find me evidence of ANY canine genetisist that agrees with that type of inbreeding and Ill gladly take back my comments. Post a copy of the pedigree, say 6 generations and Ill calculate the COI for you. Many "sporting" dogs fail too, its nothing to do with the fact they are inbred that makes them succeed! For what its worth, I never commented on the photo, I actually think its a nice looking dog! Dawn B ...i dont wish to offend you as i certainly cant be bothered getting into an internet argument....but with respect i have come across your sort before......people who think long scientific words prove they know how to breed sporting dogs.....it just doesnt work like that.....when it comes to dogs bred for the extremes of sporting prowess there just isnt any classroom or text book that will teach that....because breeding to extremes is justnot done very much......show me a text book or scientist who teaches people how to breed extreme fighting gameness in dogs ?...extreme working ability in dogs ?......when it comes to breeding dogs for sport 5 years hands on experience beats 25 years reading text books hands down im afraid......your obvious lack of knowledge regarding the uses of inbreeding shows you have no real knowledge on breeding when it comes to sporting dogs and like i say....text book or class room knowledge has no real value in the field...its good to know the basics yes but it wont create a great dog in the real world ! As a quick example....your average V8 car engine is probably not designed to be bored out to the extremes racing car experts do to create the ultimate in fast cars...........but it works !...........the same applies in breeding sporting dogs.....inbreeding has been proved to work throughout the generations....so why not use it ? because the teacher told you not to ?....with respect,it might be worth getting ones hands dirty and trying different breeding principals before simply repeating what you have been told or read and knocking it. Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 29,638 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Apologies to the original poster for babbling on i just cant stand people who close their eyes and ears to everything in favour of reading from a book ! The dog pictured looks a good example and sounds a very well bred animal ....i only have a little experience with whippets,they wasnt for me....but impressive little dogs all the same....good luck rehoming him. Link to post Share on other sites
lamper12 30 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Should I? Find me evidence of ANY canine genetisist that agrees with that type of inbreeding and Ill gladly take back my comments. Post a copy of the pedigree, say 6 generations and Ill calculate the COI for you. Many "sporting" dogs fail too, its nothing to do with the fact they are inbred that makes them succeed! For what its worth, I never commented on the photo, I actually think its a nice looking dog! Dawn B ...i dont wish to offend you as i certainly cant be bothered getting into an internet argument....but with respect i have come across your sort before......people who think long scientific words prove they know how to breed sporting dogs.....it just doesnt work like that.....when it comes to dogs bred for the extremes of sporting prowess there just isnt any classroom or text book that will teach that....because breeding to extremes is justnot done very much......show me a text book or scientist who teaches people how to breed extreme fighting gameness in dogs ?...extreme working ability in dogs ?......when it comes to breeding dogs for sport 5 years hands on experience beats 25 years reading text books hands down im afraid......your obvious lack of knowledge regarding the uses of inbreeding shows you have no real knowledge on breeding when it comes to sporting dogs and like i say....text book or class room knowledge has no real value in the field...its good to know the basics yes but it wont create a great dog in the real world ! As a quick example....your average V8 car engine is probably not designed to be bored out to the extremes racing car experts do to create the ultimate in fast cars...........but it works !...........the same applies in breeding sporting dogs.....inbreeding has been proved to work throughout the generations....so why not use it ? because the teacher told you not to ?....with respect,it might be worth getting ones hands dirty and trying different breeding principals before simply repeating what you have been told or read and knocking it. Link to post Share on other sites
droid 11 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Without wishing to offend you, gnasher, it doesn't matter what you're breeding the dog for, basic genetic principles hold. If you inbreed, you increase the risk (note the terminology: you don't guarantee) that harmful recessive gene characteristics will show up in your dogs. As has been stated elsewhere, these animals will be culled out, so it looks to an outsider that there isn't a problem. Scotty said 'Captain, ye cannae change the Laws of Physics!' Sadly, it's the same for genetics, no matter what breeders choose to believe. 'Deliverence' anyone? Link to post Share on other sites
Dawn B 212 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Should I? Find me evidence of ANY canine genetisist that agrees with that type of inbreeding and Ill gladly take back my comments. Post a copy of the pedigree, say 6 generations and Ill calculate the COI for you. Many "sporting" dogs fail too, its nothing to do with the fact they are inbred that makes them succeed! For what its worth, I never commented on the photo, I actually think its a nice looking dog! Dawn B ...i dont wish to offend you as i certainly cant be bothered getting into an internet argument....but with respect i have come across your sort before......people who think long scientific words prove they know how to breed sporting dogs.....it just doesnt work like that.....when it comes to dogs bred for the extremes of sporting prowess there just isnt any classroom or text book that will teach that....because breeding to extremes is justnot done very much......show me a text book or scientist who teaches people how to breed extreme fighting gameness in dogs ?...extreme working ability in dogs ?......when it comes to breeding dogs for sport 5 years hands on experience beats 25 years reading text books hands down im afraid......your obvious lack of knowledge regarding the uses of inbreeding shows you have no real knowledge on breeding when it comes to sporting dogs and like i say....text book or class room knowledge has no real value in the field...its good to know the basics yes but it wont create a great dog in the real world ! As a quick example....your average V8 car engine is probably not designed to be bored out to the extremes racing car experts do to create the ultimate in fast cars...........but it works !...........the same applies in breeding sporting dogs.....inbreeding has been proved to work throughout the generations....so why not use it ? because the teacher told you not to ?....with respect,it might be worth getting ones hands dirty and trying different breeding principals before simply repeating what you have been told or read and knocking it. Im not offended and I appreciate your opinion, but inbreeding does end in dogs suffering. At NO point did i say this dog looked at is if were, I did in fact say I thought he was a nice looking dog, he is! Dogs are not cars, they are not machines, they are living breathing animals that suffer at our hands when we think we know best. If you think my "lack of knowledge on inbreeding" is evident, then thats fine, its your opinion, but even on this forum alone we hear of father to daughter, brother to sister etc and then we have heard about retained testicles, fits, poor feet etc... ALL inherited, plus of course the deformed and dead litters also. I am not saying that ut cant work, just that it is unwise and is PROVED to cause problems, IMO, based I what I have learned Id run a mile! Link to post Share on other sites
Dawn B 212 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 If you inbreed, you increase the risk (note the terminology: you don't guarantee) that harmful recessive gene characteristics will show up in your dogs. As has been stated elsewhere, these animals will be culled out, so it looks to an outsider that there isn't a problem. SPOT ON Droid!! If it looks wrong, doesnt do well etc.. its culled, nobody knows any different, litter brother is ok, bred from and BINGO next generation has a heitened degree of the problem! Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 29,638 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Without wishing to offend you, gnasher, it doesn't matter what you're breeding the dog for, basic genetic principles hold. If you inbreed, you increase the risk (note the terminology: you don't guarantee) that harmful recessive gene characteristics will show up in your dogs. As has been stated elsewhere, these animals will be culled out, so it looks to an outsider that there isn't a problem. EAXCTLY !...because basic genetic principals hold we can use them as a tool to produce what we are looking for......thats what we do,we USE those principals.......with extreme selection we can produce very quickly what we otherwise couldnt if sticking to basic unrelated genes......yes of course you increase the risk of harm....BUT you also increase the chance of the good traits you are looking for coming out...........keeping them,and using them,and keeping the bad traits that will also come out away.....is why the selection process is THE most important aspect of any breeding programme. Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 29,638 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 The thing is dawnb you are talking about a dogs general health and well being as a pet animal...im not...im talking about the ultimate in sporting prowess in a dog......if that means that in 1 litter 5 dogs are culled and 2 remain alive to become very good sporting dogs then so be it.... Im not saying inbreeding is of benefit to the pet dog world...its not we know that.....if i wanted an average run of the mill pet dog to curl up round the fireside then i would not select an inbred animal......if on the other hand i was looking for a top sporting dog i would look at its ped and understand what produced the dog....and if selective inbreeding had taken place i would know why......if that inbred dog then proved himself a good sporting dog also i would have faith in breeding him as i would know WHY he proved a good dog and it wouldnt be luck !... There is a huge difference inbreeding for sport and inbreeding for a pet dog.....im not talking about inbreeding to sell dogs to people or inbreeding to put dogs by the fireside....im talking about inbreeding to create top sporting dogs......it can and does work and its a proven breeding technique when done correctly and very selectively. Link to post Share on other sites
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