dicehorn 38 Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 That Deker is how I have seen the law relating to deer out of season and especially night time shooting, so I also need to be corrected by (if there is) any law that has superseded what Deker has kindly placed on this thread Peter Quote Link to post
Mr_Logic 5 Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 One thing that confuses me. The amendment to the law, for day shooting out of season, says about protecting the heritage and/or public safety but makes no mention of damage to property. The bit on night shooting makes reference to the damage to property bit. Which leads me to wonder if you can shoot deer out of season during the day if they damage your property BUT at night you need a license to do the same thing. But that's daft, because it means (if correct) that I could in theory shoot a roe doe on my landowner's land (assuming they wanted me to, obviously) at any time of year, since the landowner has a problem with deer damage, which is precisely why I have been shooting deer, in season only. I then say the deer's death is pest control, and eat the deer in the normal way. Makes a bit of a mockery of the seasons, doesn't it? Quote Link to post
DaveK 0 Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) One thing that confuses me. The amendment to the law, for day shooting out of season, says about protecting the heritage and/or public safety but makes no mention of damage to property. The bit on night shooting makes reference to the damage to property bit. Which leads me to wonder if you can shoot deer out of season during the day if they damage your property BUT at night you need a license to do the same thing. But that's daft, because it means (if correct) that I could in theory shoot a roe doe on my landowner's land (assuming they wanted me to, obviously) at any time of year, since the landowner has a problem with deer damage, which is precisely why I have been shooting deer, in season only. I then say the deer's death is pest control, and eat the deer in the normal way. Makes a bit of a mockery of the seasons, doesn't it? It's the usual thing with laws and the like. They're so ambiguous that nobody except for them that drew them up understand what they actually mean. Just think of the utter confusion if they were to turn the DSC's into NVQ's. Edited July 11, 2008 by DaveK Quote Link to post
hingindoolie 0 Posted July 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Deker I am sorry to contradict you but we were I believe talking about the shooting of deer out of season for the protection of crops. I reiterate my earlier post, occupiers and those that qualify under this section (which I believe is section 7 but I may be wrong because I have not bothered to look it up) DO NOT need a license to shoot deer out of season. The 2007 Regulatory Reform you quote makes specific amendments and additions to the 1991 deer act and if you read it thoroughly you will notice that it does not amend the section in the 1991 act giving occupiers the right to shoot deer out of season without a license. I do so and as long as it is legal will continue to do so, obviously only when it is necessary. As I pointed out in an earlier post I even have 12 bore slugs conditioned on my fac for such specific use namely "the 12 bore slug ammunition may also be used for the shooting of marauding deer as allowed by the deer act 1991". You are of course quite correct that a license is required for shooting them out of season to protect public health or natural heritage but NOT for the circumstances I was discussing and no amount of red ink will prove me wrong. May I suggest you read the act in question or perhaps speak to Natural England or the BDS if you refuse to believe me. Guys ...I really don't give a fig if you want to ignore the regulations, but burrying your head in the sand and pretending they don't exist is nieve! You need a licence...and you will have a tough job getting one! I am also far more familier with the 1991 Act than most, and was very happy with the previous regulations with regard "out of season control". The BDS would not allow you to shoot deer at all if they had their own way, and Natural England are the most disorganised out of touch organisation you would ever want to deal with.... BUT...their repsonse some months back when I discussed shooting deer out of season was ...you cannot shoot them simply because you see them eating crops...you need to proove damage and GET A LICENCE!!! I will be very happy for someone to show me I am wrong but both the BASC (in writing) and Natural England (verbally) have commented that a licence IS required for crop damage shooting out of season! I have printed the application below for you...and highlighted the bit about damage to agricultural or horticultural crops, damage to forestry Deer Act 1991 (as amended) Application for a licence to kill or take deer out of season or at night ·1 Please complete this application form using dark ink and BLOCK CAPITALS. ·2 All questions must be answered. Failure to provide adequate information will delay the processing of your application. ·3 The completed and signed application should be sent to Natural England at the address given opposite. ·4 Natural England will normally aim to decide whether a licence should be issued within 30 working days of receipt of the application and any accompanying information. ·5 If you experience any problems filling in this form, please contact the Wildlife Licensing Unit (details opposite). Wildlife Licensing Unit Natural England Burghill Road, Westbury-on-Trym Bristol BS10 6NJ T. 0845 601 4523 F. 0845 601 3438 E. wildlife@ naturalengland.org.uk The Deer Act 1991 (as amended) prohibits or controls the taking or killing of deer at certain times of the year, at night and by certain methods. It makes certain exceptions for occupiers of land where deer are found and allows action to be taken for the purpose of preventing suffering or in accordance with a Notice served under Section 98 of the Agriculture Act 1947. The Regulatory Reform (Deer) (England and Wales) Order 2007 introduced a number of new licensing provisions from 1st October 2007. Under Section 8 of the Deer Act 1991(as amended), Natural England has the power to grant licences as follows: To permit the taking or killing of deer during the relevant close season for the purpose of: Preserving public health or public safety Conserving the natural heritage To permit the taking or killing of deer at night for the purpose of: Preserving public health or public safety Conserving the natural heritage Preventing serious damage to property A licence may only be issued under these provisions if: There is a serious risk of deer causing the problem concerned and, to achieve the purpose in question, there is no satisfactory alternative to taking or killing the deer in the close season or at night as appropriate. In addition, the licensee must have a right of entry to the land for the purpose of taking or killing deer under a licence and, in the case of a licence to take or kill deer at night to prevent serious damage to property, serious damage must have been caused in the year preceding the application. The licensing provisions include a safeguard to protect the conservation status of Red, Roe and Fallow deer, to avoid reducing the population of the species concerned, within its natural range, to a level at which it cannot maintain itself in the long-term. 1. Personal Details Title (e.g. Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms) Forename Surname Address County Postcode Daytime telephone no. (incl. national dialing code) Mobile no. Fax no. Email address If you would like us to acknowledge receipt of this application, please tick ONE of the following boxes to indicate your preferred method: Email Telephone Fax Letter 2. Previous Applications (a) Have you previously held a licence under the Deer Act 1991? If No please go to question 3 below Yes No ( Have any of your previous licences covered the same species, activities and purpose as this licence application? Yes No If No, please go to question 3 If Yes, please give your most recent licence number (located at the top of the licence) © Have you changed your address since your last licence was issued? Yes No If yes, please supply the address on your last licence Address County Postcode 3. Location of proposed licensed action (a) Please give the name and full postal address of the land or property where the problem is occurring. Address County Postcode ( Please give the precise location of where licensed action is proposed including the OS Grid Ref. If appropriate, please provide field numbers/names, compartment numbers etc. © Is this land covered by a Natural England management agreement? Yes No If Yes, please give the agreement reference number NOTE. For new applications please attach a map of a suitable scale indicating where the problem is occurring and where action is proposed. 4. Licences will normally only be granted to the owner or occupier or a person authorised by the owner or occupier (a) Are you the owner or occupier of the land referred to in Question 3? Yes No ( If no give the position you hold in relation to this land N.B. Where you are not the owner or occupier you should attach the owner or occupier’s written consent for you to make this application (please use the format of the proforma at page 7). 5. Conservation considerations Where licensed action is proposed on or near to a protected site such as a National Nature Reserve (NNR), Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI), Special Protection Area (SPA), Special Area of Conservation (SAC) or Ramsar site, we have to take the conservation interest of that site into account when processing your application. Is the site identified at Question 4 in an area covered by, or near to, a protected site e.g. NNR, SSSI, SAC, SPA, Ramsar? Yes No If it is on a protected site, have you consulted with your local Natural England office for advice on the implications of your application? Yes No In the box below please give either the outcome of your consultations or the reason why you have not consulted. Please enclose any relevant correspondence. 6. Nature of the problem (a) Please specify species of deer causing, or likely to be causing, the problem. Fallow Deer (Dama dama) Red Deer (Cervus elaphus) Roe Deer (Capreolus capreolus) Sika Deer (Cervus nippon) Chinese Water Deer (Hydropotes inermis) Muntjac Deer (Muntiacus reevesi) ( Please provide details on the nature and extent of the problem (including any historical evidence); e.g. damage to agricultural or horticultural crops, damage to forestry, hazard to public health or safety, damage to conservation areas. Continue on a separate sheet or attach supporting information if appropriate. © Time of year when the problem occurs Note: For applications to night shoot to prevent serious damage to property, serious damage must have been caused in the year preceding the application. (d) Please provide details on the number and behaviour of the deer causing the problem and where they are predominantly taking cover. (e) Are there any other factors contributing to the problem? Yes No If YES, please give details and state what (if any) action has been taken. 7. Preventative measures taken (a) Have measures been taken to prevent the problems outlined at Question 6? Yes No If YES, provide details of the methods already employed (e.g. culling during the open season, fencing, deterrents, proofing, exercising the ‘farmer’s defence’ under Section 7 of the Deer Act 1991 within the close season) and explain why they are not considered sufficient to resolve the problem. If NO, please explain why preventative measures have not been taken. ( Is there / are you aware of a Deer Management Group in the area? Yes No © Have you sought advice from the Deer Initiative or any other body? Yes No If Yes to ( or © give details 8. Proposed licence action (a) Nature of the proposed action e.g. Shooting during the close season or at night ( Period of proposed action (which months) 9. Deer management qualifications / Experience What deer management qualifications and/or experience do you possess e.g. DSC level 1 & 2 10. Authority to act under licence Up to four (4) people (including the licensee) may normally be authorised to kill deer under a licence. It is your responsibility to ensure that you have the appropriate permissions to use firearms on the licensed site. Please list below the names, contact telephone numbers and deer management qualifications/experience of all persons other than the applicant who propose to take action under a licence if one is issued (a maximum of four if the licensee is not taking action). No-one under the age of 18 years may be authorised to use firearms by the licensee without specific written permission from Natural England. The licensee and anyone acting under the licence are responsible for their actions and for complying with the licence conditions. Any proposed changes to this list must be notified in writing to Natural England at the address at the top of this form. Name of authorised person Contact telephone no. Qualifications / Experience 11. Declarations Have you, or any persons named in this form by you, been convicted of any wildlife-related or animal welfare offence? Yes No If YES, please give details including dates Using and sharing your information The data controller is Natural England, Northminster House, Peterborough, PE1 1UA. Your information will be stored and processed in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998. This Act gives you, as an individual, the right to know what data we hold on you, how we use it, with whom we share it and for it to be accurate. It will be used for processing your application. Natural England or its appointed agents may use the name, address and other details on your application form to contact you in connection with occasional customer research aimed at improving the services that Natural England provides to you. We will respect personal privacy, whilst complying with access to information requests to the extent necessary to enable Natural England to comply with its statutory obligations under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004, and the Freedom of Information Act 2000. If you believe that any of the information we hold concerning you is incorrect or out of date, please provide us with the accurate information in writing together with supporting evidence (if appropriate). You should address your correspondence to: Natural England, Wildlife Licensing Unit, Northminster House, Peterborough, PE1 1UA. Tel. 01733 455000; Fax. 01733 455536; Email: wildlife@naturalengland.org.uk Declaration I have read and understood the guidance provided in this application form. I declare that the particulars given are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief, and I apply for a licence in accordance with these particulars. I am the owner/occupier of the land referred to in this application or I have obtained authority from the owner/occupier to act on their behalf in respect of this application. I confirm that I have obtained the permission of the owner/occupier to allow any employee or representative of Natural England to monitor or inspect the work described in this application (completed authority section on page 7 attached). Signature of applicant Date Name in BLOCK LETTERS Important advice Natural England can modify or revoke at any time any licence that may be issued, but this will not be done unless there are good reasons for doing so. Any licence that is issued is likely to be revoked immediately if it is discovered that false information had been provided that resulted in the issue of a licence. ·1 Please ensure that you have answered all relevant questions fully and have signed the declaration. ·2 If you wish to change the information on this form, please contact the Wildlife Licensing Unit (details on the front page of this application). Deer Act 1991 (as amended) Application for a licence to kill or take deer out of season or at night ·1 Please complete this application form using dark ink and BLOCK CAPITALS. ·2 All questions must be answered. Failure to provide adequate information will delay the processing of your application. ·3 The completed and signed application should be sent to Natural England at the address given opposite. ·4 Natural England will normally aim to decide whether a licence should be issued within 30 working days of receipt of the application and any accompanying information. ·5 If you experience any problems filling in this form, please contact the Wildlife Licensing Unit (details opposite). Wildlife Licensing Unit Natural England Burghill Road, Westbury-on-Trym Bristol BS10 6NJ T. 0845 601 4523 F. 0845 601 3438 E. wildlife@ naturalengland.org.uk The Deer Act 1991 (as amended) prohibits or controls the taking or killing of deer at certain times of the year, at night and by certain methods. It makes certain exceptions for occupiers of land where deer are found and allows action to be taken for the purpose of preventing suffering or in accordance with a Notice served under Section 98 of the Agriculture Act 1947. The Regulatory Reform (Deer) (England and Wales) Order 2007 introduced a number of new licensing provisions from 1st October 2007. Under Section 8 of the Deer Act 1991(as amended), Natural England has the power to grant licences as follows: To permit the taking or killing of deer during the relevant close season for the purpose of: Preserving public health or public safety Conserving the natural heritage To permit the taking or killing of deer at night for the purpose of: Preserving public health or public safety Conserving the natural heritage Preventing serious damage to property A licence may only be issued under these provisions if: There is a serious risk of deer causing the problem concerned and, to achieve the purpose in question, there is no satisfactory alternative to taking or killing the deer in the close season or at night as appropriate. In addition, the licensee must have a right of entry to the land for the purpose of taking or killing deer under a licence and, in the case of a licence to take or kill deer at night to prevent serious damage to property, serious damage must have been caused in the year preceding the application. The licensing provisions include a safeguard to protect the conservation status of Red, Roe and Fallow deer, to avoid reducing the population of the species concerned, within its natural range, to a level at which it cannot maintain itself in the long-term. Deker is absolutely and without question correct about permission. You must prove that deer are causing damage and it will be inspected. In Scotland an agreement will be drawn up as to the number of offending beasts that may be shot and over what time period. We do not require a license up here but would not take the chance out of season without this document. Quote Link to post
CharlieT 32 Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Deker I copy below the latest legislation and have highlighted in red the section referring to section 7 of the act which permits the shooting of deer out of season by those that qualify without a license. However, as arguing is pointless, I will make no further comments on this topic. Charlie DEER RRO 2007.............amendments to the Deer Act 1991. Enable licensed killing or taking of deer during the close season to prevent deterioration of the natural heritage or to preserve public health and safety Where deer are a serious threat for either of the two reasons stated, Natural England or the Welsh Assembly Government may issue a licence to kill or take deer out of season. A license will be specific as to purpose for which it is granted, land to which it relates, the species and description of deer (i.e. male/female) that can be taken/killed, the method by which they may be taken and the maximum number that can be taken. It is likely to be restricted by time (e.g. close season licenses are likely to be valid only during daylight hours) and overall duration, probably limited to one year/one season. The persons actually operating under the licence - the stalkers - will need to be named on the license and there will be a maximum number - normally restricted to a maximum of 4. The licence may impose conditions over and above those required by the Deer Act(1991)(as amended) . Licences will only be issued as a last resort , where there is no satisfactory alternative, such as deer management by conventional means. Applications forms are available: In England - Natural England In Wales - Welsh Assembly Government: Agri Environment Policy Dept 02920 821523 Where deer are damaging property such as crops Section 7 of the Deer Act 1991 provides a “farmers defence†whereby authorised persons may, in certain circumstances shoot deer if they are causing damage in the close season (see the Act for details of the types of situations covered). Quote Link to post
Deker 3,450 Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 (edited) Deker I copy below the latest legislation and have highlighted in red the section referring to section 7 of the act which permits the shooting of deer out of season by those that qualify without a license. However, as arguing is pointless, I will make no further comments on this topic. Charlie DEER RRO 2007.............amendments to the Deer Act 1991. Enable licensed killing or taking of deer during the close season to prevent deterioration of the natural heritage or to preserve public health and safety Where deer are a serious threat for either of the two reasons stated, Natural England or the Welsh Assembly Government may issue a licence to kill or take deer out of season. A license will be specific as to purpose for which it is granted, land to which it relates, the species and description of deer (i.e. male/female) that can be taken/killed, the method by which they may be taken and the maximum number that can be taken. It is likely to be restricted by time (e.g. close season licenses are likely to be valid only during daylight hours) and overall duration, probably limited to one year/one season. The persons actually operating under the licence - the stalkers - will need to be named on the license and there will be a maximum number - normally restricted to a maximum of 4. The licence may impose conditions over and above those required by the Deer Act(1991)(as amended) . Licences will only be issued as a last resort , where there is no satisfactory alternative, such as deer management by conventional means. Applications forms are available: In England - Natural England In Wales - Welsh Assembly Government: Agri Environment Policy Dept 02920 821523 Where deer are damaging property such as crops Section 7 of the Deer Act 1991 provides a “farmers defence†whereby authorised persons may, in certain circumstances shoot deer if they are causing damage in the close season (see the Act for details of the types of situations covered). IF, that is correct it, is potentially very good news ...however, I can't see this in the Amendment. Under which heading/section/sub section, para, whatever does this list, Kindly point me in the direction of the section to look up! Cheers! Edited July 16, 2008 by Deker Quote Link to post
CharlieT 32 Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Deker This link www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/html/deeract.htm to the Deer Initiative web site details the amendments and changes to the Deer Act 1991. I have given the Deer Initiatives web site as I do a bit for them and know the address of the top of my head. Out of interest it is the Deer Initiative who have been charged with the management, if that is the right word, of the UK wild Boar population in addition to all deer species. Quote Link to post
Deker 3,450 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Deker This link www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/html/deeract.htm to the Deer Initiative web site details the amendments and changes to the Deer Act 1991. I have given the Deer Initiatives web site as I do a bit for them and know the address of the top of my head. Out of interest it is the Deer Initiative who have been charged with the management, if that is the right word, of the UK wild Boar population in addition to all deer species. Appreciate that, BUT that is NOT the Deer Act Amendment. That is a few bits and pieces of the changes and a few comments about it....I suspect that is why this whole subject has got so confusing and potentially why even some of the organisations themselves don't know what day of the week it is!! There is no mention of a "farmers defence" that I can see in the Amendment, although I do concede that I am struggling to find anything that specifically overides the old section 7. But it should be noted that section 7, 1991 Deer Act does not stand alone, it was a defence to section 2 (taking deer out of season) and many changes have taked place to section 2 which arguably leaves section 7 defunct...although, apparently, the Deer Initiative don't necessarily see it that way. But they don't make the law or issue the Licences! This is the Deer Act Amendment http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20072183_en_1 It is certainly not clear, and unfortuntely, comment and emails I have received from certain organisations state that you need a licence for out of season shooting for ALL circumstances. It seems that others may have recieved contradictory information, in some cases from the same organisations. I have to admit that having now sudied the Amendment more thoroughly myself, rather than relying on apparent experts.....I just don't know!!! Quote Link to post
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