Reminder of the wheaton x mentality

[jiggy 3,207]

How far are we away from treating dogs with mental illness medication. He's a paranoid fcuker but he's ok with other dogs after half a valium although he needs therapy and acupuncture to relax him during off season because he is bipolar ????

[PJCaswell 114]

7 hours ago, Casso said:

The dog is only processing the world through the ONLY way he can and that’s through a predator mindset , I don’t know way people can’t understand the implications of that , 

so when another dog is walking  on the other side of the road he can’t differentate between a dog out walking and something coming at him,

the only saving grace is that a dog is one of the most social animals on earth and if meetings were allowed to play out and this is the point,  the ritualistic behavior is what plicates the encounter , the sniffing pissing then smelling of urine , posing , it all works out the stimulation, a dog knows how to do this , he can mold himself to fit into a social setting 

you don’t have to show a dog how to be social, 

i don’t try to expose the pup to a world that will trigger his instincts over and over at a vulnerable age , people are f***ing frying the pups emotional system, he’s going out into what feels like a war zone of movement and stimulation, every encounter is an emotional input and for every input there must be an output but on lead walk there ain’t , it’s stimulation overload  ,that builds until the right moment

he just flipped one day , is the phrase most commonly heard in dog Dom 

question socialisation , we didn’t socialise 30 years ago, work and back into shed , dogs were bulletproof , take them anywhere , but now  we have to show them everywhere before their 4 months old ,and every f****n expert in the world is just nodding their heads in argreement , like sheep 

put it this way every dog in shelters today as is the latest fad was socialised , so what happened  , why isn’t it a cure ? How are some of them so f****d up 

not aimed at you bud just a general rant

Their is a massive difference between taking a pup out nice and quiet, handfeeding in the field and developing a real focused bond through the only attachment it has at that age , it’s gut , it can ONLY tune into you if the environment will let it 

and dragging it around streets where you make it physically impossible to focus on you and throwing every unmanaged situation thrown at it    Triggering instinctive responses in pups lead to triggering instinctive responses in adult ,it’s all a learned behaviour,  

you don’t need a dog bogged down with all that emotional baggage

 

 

 

 

I agree that you need to get the focus on you but I have a slightly different view about socialisation.

Basically you DON'T have to teach a dog how to be social but you DO have to give it the opportunity to be social in a range of environments, ideally before they are 6 months old.

By six months a puppy should be handled and fed by a range of people including young children. It should have played with a range of dogs including older ones. If you don’t do this you are asking for trouble, especially if it has one of the fighting terriers in it. By 9 months the dog should sit for a treat with other dogs and be fed last without moving.  

30 years ago dogs weren’t all law abiding bastions of peace and love. There were a lot of nasty dogs and lot of dog bites. People largely put up with it. What has changed is that there are simply more large dogs living in urban environments and people are reasonably less willing to have their children bitten by the neighbour’s poodle.

[Casso 1,256]

2 hours ago, PJCaswell said:

I agree that you need to get the focus on you but I have a slightly different view about socialisation.

Basically you DON'T have to teach a dog how to be social but you DO have to give it the opportunity to be social in a range of environments, ideally before they are 6 months old.

By six months a puppy should be handled and fed by a range of people including young children. It should have played with a range of dogs including older ones. If you don’t do this you are asking for trouble, especially if it has one of the fighting terriers in it. By 9 months the dog should sit for a treat with other dogs and be fed last without moving.  

30 years ago dogs weren’t all law abiding bastions of peace and love. There were a lot of nasty dogs and lot of dog bites. People largely put up with it. What has changed is that there are simply more large dogs living in urban environments and people are reasonably less willing to have their children bitten by the neighbour’s poodle.

I get where your coming from but what does been social mean , for me been social for a dog should be, 

ignoring anything else in its environment but me, no reaction to hostile dogs , gobshites or anything else not work related 

you don’t train a dog by throwing every thing at it at the beginning 

distraction are include as the bond develops , they not thrown in at the start?

the last pup reared here was a cane Corso /Dogo mix , hes about 50 kg , no one and I mean no one advised me not to socialise , 

he met his first dog at 10 months and he play bowed, he could do that because he had never , ever have a bad reaction involving another dog and more importantly

, he believed the sun shined out of my hind end by that stage , that more importantly meant , he spent the previous 8 months engrossed in my world , nobody else’s 

Why do you say should, we say Should because we are not really sure why or  why not but it seems right 

we’re all dealing with this puppy close off point, where the pup can’t make any more new friends date ,

f**k me pink , why aren’t folk more interested in the date of a pup practising impulse control because before that date a pup has no control of oral impulses , you start putting down rules before that time and you can end up with unretrievable consequences to any relationship 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Casso

[PJCaswell 114]

20 minutes ago, Casso said:

I get where your coming from but what does been social mean , for me been social for a dog should be, 

ignoring anything else in its environment but me, no reaction to hostile dogs , gobshites or anything else not work related 

you don’t train a dog by throwing every thing at it at the beginning 

distraction are include as the bond develops , they not thrown in at the start?

the last pup reared here was a cane Corso /Dogo mix , hes about 50 kg , no one and I mean no one advised me not to socialise , 

he met his first dog at 10 months and he play bowed, he could do that because he had never , ever have a bad reaction involving another dog and more importantly

, he believed the sun shined out of my hind end by that stage , that more importantly meant , he spent the previous 8 months engrossed in my world , nobody else’s 

Why do you say should, we say Should because we are not really sure why or  why not but it seems right 

 

 

 

I think we agree the most import thing is that the dog bonds to whatever individual or group that brings it up. If you get that right you will normally have a great dog. 

You have obviously done a great job, but it is fairly unusual for a dog not to meet another dog until its 10 months. At that point I assume your dog would be bigger and more powerful than most other dogs, again this is unusual. Did you do this on purpose - that is keep your dog away from others or did it just happen?  I don't know anything really about the specific about those breads apart from they are very big powerful dogs, and Dogo's are banned (unfairly) in the UK under the Dangerous Dogs Act.  

But to answer your question why do I think dogs should be socialised as puppies? From experience, the well trained and chilled out dogs I know without exception have been well socialised including bull x and mastiff x. I know an amazing pit bull type that looks like a hound of hell but is the most relaxed dog with other dogs I've met. The nightmare dogs I've know have often under socialised, sometimes by design. Early socialisation is something that is also required by those dogs that work for the police military etc. 

[Casso 1,256]

8 hours ago, PJCaswell said:

IAI think we agree the most import thing is that the dog bonds to whatever individual or group that brings it up. If you get that right you will normally have a great dog. 

You have obviously done a great job, but it is fairly unusual for a dog not to meet another dog until its 10 months. At that point I assume your dog would be bigger and more powerful than most other dogs, again this is unusual. Did you do this on purpose - that is keep your dog away from others or did it just happen?  I don't know anything really about the specific about those breads apart from they are very big powerful dogs, and Dogo's are banned (unfairly) in the UK under the Dangerous Dogs Act.  

But to answer your question why do I think dogs should be socialised as puppies? From experience, the well trained and chilled out dogs I know without exception have been well socialised including bull x and mastiff x. I know an amazing pit bull type that looks like a hound of hell but is the most relaxed dog with other dogs I've met. The nightmare dogs I've know have often under socialised, sometimes by design. Early socialisation is something that is also required by those dogs that work for the police military etc. 

This term socialised for me means social and how that happens in nature is by not having a bad experience with another object / animal. , that’s all it is 

the fact that a cow and a rabbit can be social towards one another doesn’t mean they are friends   All it means is they don’t have an emotional charge directed towards each other   Basically they are nothing to each other , they can graze in close proximity ,without each other giving a shit   That’s all been social means in nature  is not having an emotional response towards another 

 

, that can be a bird with an animal, wild bird with human , wild bird : wild animals you get my drift, trust is built, coyote and badger can hunt together , time and trust 

its the bad experience first time that informs an animal how to react the second time   

and you sir are telling me the most social animal ever moved on this earth , can’t without us helping it ? 

that means that dogs need us now to help them make friends because they can’t on their own , 

The point I’m making about the pup here is zero to do with training and all to do with management , years ago I went to a seminar given by a successful competitor in working dog sports , he had 4 working male shepherds and a bitch, when I talked to the man later that day , my first question was how do you manage the friction,  there is no friction he said, and his explanation blew me away at the time , he doesn’t let a future working pup play with the other males , ever, the way he put it was” he couldn’t afford to let the pup feel aggrieved in its interaction with the other males because at some stage maybe later rather than sooner the issue will arise again , guaranteed 

Every dog is born social,  it’s whatever happens between that and the time it ends up in the shelter is down to us, socialised or not bud , 

we are the biggest element in turning  that uncontrollable urge of an animal into a social charmer , 

when we think Social  , we think friends, 

translated into animal means   never having acquired an emotional response from another 

we konw the dog is  social but we just cant give up the fear, so we try to educate the aggression out in a clumsy human way   Complete waste of time   puppy classes , most will be proven to have done more harm than good , been thru it before , people with no idea of temperament or drive telling me a piece of cheese should be enough to keep his attention while the Akita pup mauls the cockerpoo in the corner, they give you your certificate but what you don’t see is the root of an emotional response planted in pups at that early stage , you’ll only get that when the dog matures   Puppy classes will be long forgotten and the dog will have turned one day , “just out of the blue “ 

Teach me something I don’t know about socialisation ? I don’t see animal logic in it , I see human reason grasping at human logic, 

there  are people who don’t know how to work dogs, never worked them , don’t understand drive, don’t know what temperament is     And they are all involved in dishing out advice on socialisation to people who just don’t know where to turn 

it’s a pet world construct and had no place on a hunting site 

if anyone is able to put up with with rambling advice and wants advice on bringing  on a pup , let me know , I don’t sell snake oil or do card tricks but dogs I know I know because I know nothing else 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Casso

[Born Hunter 17,622]

For starters, well done for being reasonable and understanding that it was your mistake that caused it. We all make mistakes but you aren't being a dick about it like many would.

My attitude with all these big powerful dogs that are capable mentally and physically of utter carnage is that you have a loaded weapon! Holster it!

I'm very prone to personally taking the initiative and 'dealing with' other folks' dogs that are not under their control and are showing signs of aggression before that turns to their dog tearing chunks out of mine. I don't mind having to do that... What flips my switch is when they have the gaul to get verbal with me for doing what they hadn't the responsibility to do themselves.

[rob284 1,678]

I find its best to walk your dog where nobody else walks. Then one day if you come across another dog, the dog will be socialised in a way that other dogs arent of interest because it has learnt to work the land whilst out exercising, not run around like a loon.

[billhardy 2,341]

18 hours ago, dogmandont said:

It's not the mentality of the Wheaton cross that caused this to happen it was the mentality of the owner. What if some kids cat ran out in front this dog and it chased it into its garden and stretched it in front of the kid?  All the socialising in the would wouldn't of stopped that. Yip accidents happen but a hell of a lot of them are easily avoided. I find it funny when people blame a certain breed for (their)mistakes. When bulldogs where only kept by bulldog fanciers how many people were killed by them? Only when the idiots got hold of them did it start to happen. Don't blame the breed blame the person on the end of the lead are in this case not on the end of the lead.

No dog man yas like a lot on this site very little experience of a type or xs mostly from either the odd single animal or couple,the breed type says it all the best Wheaton blood was gotten from trial bred dogs inireland and the mix with the pit dog of the time ,yas could sociable them do the whole umdingy with them, but that would not alter the fact there mentality was driven ta kill the slightest little upset triggered them off the greyhound in the xs usually does mild there temper down to some affect ,but not allways the generatin stuff get the quality animals the ability ta keep going and killing regular ,mindset mentality and temperament have a lot ta do with this , Ray fa has far has Buck goes he nodifferent than jaz but lots heavier and powerful she possesses the guarding instinct and deep loyalty of the xs ,I believe if Buck went over a bull xs Wheaton type say maybe havock punch and Wheaton spring view stuff ,then you would awaken the instincts of a very different kettle of fish temp would be change and mindset improved and of course pain threshold ,be no good fa      Rabbs          though Ray lol.a strong type fa sure one would get that more serious type though take no nonsence would you try one one and run a big thirty inch male of this xs I could arrange a bitch fa Buck of the breeding from above, they would need ta be killing heavy at leat twice a week though or dire consequences may prevail hence those I had if some other dog man or anything showed malice to me or mine they took it out simple ,the said same would nurture the kids feed with the girls pet  rabbits cats etc I suppose it's the semester has joe blogs terriers and Stevens bred stuff chalk and cheese ,some prefer the chalk  simply because the cheese to much dog for them.amd that my readers his thebsame has no dog mans Wheaton types ,chalk no serious types.   Atb bill

[Guest Navek]

1 hour ago, billhardy said:

No dog man yas like a lot on this site very little experience of a type or xs mostly from either the odd single animal or couple,the breed type says it all the best Wheaton blood was gotten from trial bred dogs inireland and the mix with the pit dog of the time ,yas could sociable them do the whole umdingy with them, but that would not alter the fact there mentality was driven ta kill the slightest little upset triggered them off the greyhound in the xs usually does mild there temper down to some affect ,but not allways the generatin stuff get the quality animals the ability ta keep going and killing regular ,mindset mentality and temperament have a lot ta do with this , Ray fa has far has Buck goes he nodifferent than jaz but lots heavier and powerful she possesses the guarding instinct and deep loyalty of the xs ,I believe if Buck went over a bull xs Wheaton type say maybe havock punch and Wheaton spring view stuff ,then you would awaken the instincts of a very different kettle of fish temp would be change and mindset improved and of course pain threshold ,be no good fa      Rabbs          though Ray lol.a strong type fa sure one would get that more serious type though take no nonsence would you try one one and run a big thirty inch male of this xs I could arrange a bitch fa Buck of the breeding from above, they would need ta be killing heavy at leat twice a week though or dire consequences may prevail hence those I had if some other dog man or anything showed malice to me or mine they took it out simple ,the said same would nurture the kids feed with the girls pet  rabbits cats etc I suppose it's the semester has joe blogs terriers and Stevens bred stuff chalk and cheese ,some prefer the chalk  simply because the cheese to much dog for them.amd that my readers his thebsame has no dog mans Wheaton types ,chalk no serious types.   Atb bill

???????????

[PJCaswell 114]

Wheatons, like pit bulls, mastiff or any other of the scary breeds are just dogs. And just need handling by someone who knows a bit about their breed and is willing to put in the work to train them as best they can to be first and foremost a great dog and then to work. In that order. There nothing mythical or super canine about them. 

 

[dogmandont 9,312]

3 hours ago, billhardy said:

No dog man yas like a lot on this site very little experience of a type or xs mostly from either the odd single animal or couple,the breed type says it all the best Wheaton blood was gotten from trial bred dogs inireland and the mix with the pit dog of the time ,yas could sociable them do the whole umdingy with them, but that would not alter the fact there mentality was driven ta kill the slightest little upset triggered them off the greyhound in the xs usually does mild there temper down to some affect ,but not allways the generatin stuff get the quality animals the ability ta keep going and killing regular ,mindset mentality and temperament have a lot ta do with this , Ray fa has far has Buck goes he nodifferent than jaz but lots heavier and powerful she possesses the guarding instinct and deep loyalty of the xs ,I believe if Buck went over a bull xs Wheaton type say maybe havock punch and Wheaton spring view stuff ,then you would awaken the instincts of a very different kettle of fish temp would be change and mindset improved and of course pain threshold ,be no good fa      Rabbs          though Ray lol.a strong type fa sure one would get that more serious type though take no nonsence would you try one one and run a big thirty inch male of this xs I could arrange a bitch fa Buck of the breeding from above, they would need ta be killing heavy at leat twice a week though or dire consequences may prevail hence those I had if some other dog man or anything showed malice to me or mine they took it out simple ,the said same would nurture the kids feed with the girls pet  rabbits cats etc I suppose it's the semester has joe blogs terriers and Stevens bred stuff chalk and cheese ,some prefer the chalk  simply because the cheese to much dog for them.amd that my readers his thebsame has no dog mans Wheaton types ,chalk no serious types.   Atb bill

Bill you know fcuk all about me are my dogs are what I've been around. You think youve reinvented the wheel by mixing bull xs and Wheaton xs lol. Get over yourself man. I've breed and owned Wheaton xs and been around many more so I know what there all about..  Anyway you've more stamina than me for writing shite than I have for reading it.  Ps. How are them big scatter bred plodders getting on killed many rhinos lately.

[longers01 2,319]

Ive a wheaten cross here he's 2 and half year old and he started to be a c**t with dogs he doesn't no wasn't bad until a few weeks ago so he's on lead now until we hit the fields atb longers01

[Casso 1,256]

2  half 3 depending on the dog will generally be an age where things change, he tunes into work with a vengeance   He’s about as physically vigorous as he’ll be and if he was in the wild in a pack , he’d be feeling around for weakness  for a higher social move ,

it’s a good time for him   if he’s working away he shouldn’t have an issue but I wouldnt leave him lying around too long and introduce him fresh to new male dogs 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Casso

[Kay 3,709]

Been a good thread to follow this one, have picked up some tips to help with this 10 month old bull cross, she is still very babyish a lot of the time & dicks about a lot unless I am on top of her , its getting to that time when I will be having the back door open all day when the weather warms up a wee bit... that's when the fun will start , anything that moves she wants it, pigeons on the fence are the main ball ache right now .

Its been hard getting her enough excersize other than path walks which I hate as she is switched on to just about everything... the grounds so slippy & sticky walks off the main paths are almost impossible just now 

roll on the spring 

[Casso 1,256]

12 minutes ago, Kay said:

Been a good thread to follow this one, have picked up some tips to help with this 10 month old bull cross, she is still very babyish a lot of the time & dicks about a lot unless I am on top of her , its getting to that time when I will be having the back door open all day when the weather warms up a wee bit... that's when the fun will start , anything that moves she wants it, pigeons on the fence are the main ball ache right now .

Its been hard getting her enough excersize other than path walks which I hate as she is switched on to just about everything... the grounds so slippy & sticky walks off the main paths are almost impossible just now 

roll on the spring 

Throw out the bowl Kay and let her earn every scrape of food , if shes tuning you out,  while out , get behavior for every morsel , nothing like a hollow ache to turn a dogs head , 

getting the bark out is a great way of calming a dog when it getting worked  up Might take a while but bark on command means a dog has to tune everything else out