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Rabbits with HMR

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23 hours ago, philpot said:

One of the reasons I didn't get a slot for .17HMR on my ticket was because most people 'in the know' told me that they blow rabbits apart, fine to culling but no good if you want to eat them. In the photo above Ian, there doesn't appear to be so much damage so are these taken at long range or have I got my info wrong.

 

Phil

They don't blow them up Phil, they do more damage than a .22LR thats more sure, but they drop them so much better with chest shots and you have the benefit of a real flat trajectory with greater range at night... I went down the reloading route with a .22 hornet, but its very time consuming and you soon get sick loading hundreds of rounds continually, the HMR is a grab and go gun for this... If your chest shooting the best parts of the rabbit are fine saddle/rear legs,  or for any other use it doesn't really matter dog food, etc

14 hours ago, goldfinger said:

Just a word of warning with all this modern technology you can soon shoot out your permission, I tend (unless told other wise) to look at managing numbers rather than a total wipe out to a point were they find it difficult to recover, this way the population can still give you an enjoyable day/night shooting with a few in freezer and keep Mr farmer happy as well.   

Agree it can be deadly , but some of these spots the rabbits were doing a lot of damage and had grazed quite a margin off the wheat... so numbers need to be dropped in all the years I have been shooting, you can knock them down quite a bit, but if surrounding land is unchecked they soon filter back in after a year or so..to be honest I've got plenty to go at, so I'm glad when I've got on top of them, as you can take concentrate more on other areas or vermin..

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The HMR is a very effective tool for reducing rabbit numbers. I rarely shoot at night with a lamp, as on the urban areas I shoot, it usually attracts the boys in blue after those nice chaps with lurchers. Shooting mainly at dusk, I have almost wiped out several permissions. What the HMR didn't get, myxi did. I am giving them a 6 month rest til the spring. The farmers are happy.

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On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 19:33, Born Hunter said:

I've seen it happen. These are great bits of kit and make life very easy but I do fear too many sport hunters are/will use these simply to get more. Then they need more permission and do the same again. I suppose the same was said when lamping was invented... you really can steralise ground with this new technology though, it's not progress.

Of course its progress, rifles were progress from bows, scopes were progress, lamping was progress, etc etc.

If some shooters and landowners are happy to continue with their sport shooting and leave some wildlife to breed that's up to them, I don't win any prizes for leaving jobs half done or taking longer to clear sites than I could, I take every advantage going, if that includes NV then so be it!

:thumbs:

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Deker said:

Of course its progress, rifles were progress from bows, scopes were progress, lamping was progress, etc etc.

If some shooters and landowners are happy to continue with their sport shooting and leave some wildlife to breed that's up to them, I don't win any prizes for leaving jobs half done or taking longer to clear sites than I could, I take every advantage going, if that includes NV then so be it!

:thumbs:

 

 

No, imo it's not progress. Like I said they're a useful tool to some.

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There will come a time very soon when this technology is pennies and everyone with an FAC has all of their rifles equiped with it. The difference with this is that the animal doesn't even know it's being hunted, they can't adapt to the shooting pressure, they just get wiped out, I've seen it first hand. It's embarrassingly easy and soon everyone will have it. Like when the technological leap of the motor vehicle was introduced to the white hunters of Africa, I believe the widespread use of image intensifier, thermal and whatever future advancements are to come will be detrimental to the sport. And yes to many, pest control is sport. Though a fact often denied.

I differentiate very strongly here between sportsmen and professionals.

So no, it's not progress, not this time, not with technology that threatens the future so much. I wouldn't ban anything yet but I do hope when people get bored of such easy killing and they realise that what motivates them is actually sport then there'll be a renaissance of field craft.

Edited by Born Hunter
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1 hour ago, Born Hunter said:

There will come a time very soon when this technology is pennies and everyone with an FAC has all of their rifles equiped with it. The difference with this is that the animal doesn't even know it's being hunted, they can't adapt to the shooting pressure, they just get wiped out, I've seen it first hand. It's embarrassingly easy and soon everyone will have it. Like when the technological leap of the motor vehicle was introduced to the white hunters of Africa, I believe the widespread use of image intensifier, thermal and whatever future advancements are to come will be detrimental to the sport. And yes to many, pest control is sport. Though a fact often denied.

I differentiate very strongly here between sportsmen and professionals.

So no, it's not progress, not this time, not with technology that threatens the future so much. I wouldn't ban anything yet but I do hope when people get bored of such easy killing and they realise that what motivates them is actually sport then there'll be a renaissance of field craft.

:hmm::hmm::hmm:

prog·ress

 (prŏg′rĕs′, -rəs, prō′grĕs′)     To develop, advance, or improve:

 

Nobody is making you use any sort of advanced targeting systems, just like nobody is stopping you running after a rabbit and throwing stones at it in the hope you may get lucky.  Just where should progress stop in your opinion with regards Sport shooting?

I rather suspect there were those that said, rifles threaten the future, improved ammunition threatens the future, scopes threaten the future, lamping threatens the future, pest controllers and poison and gas, etc., etc., etc., threaten the future....... there are more rabbits in the UK now than when Mixxy was introduced, so just how/why does this threaten the future so much?

Progress does not differentiate between sectors or job description!

It is PROGRESS, whether you like it or not is another matter. 

As regards a renaissance of fieldcraft, perhaps we should all just use .22Lr, then why not Air rifles only, too much progress there, catapults and bows and arrows, heaven forbid, they are levels of progress, lets develop fieldcraft with a club, wait for the rabbit to walk by then hit it over the head, nope, a club is progress, lets just jump on it, I know, better still, stand around with our mouth open and hope food will simply drop into it! :laugh:

ATB!  :thumbs:

 

PS

Kind of you not to ban anything yet, would this be a blanket ban when you introduced it, or would it have exceptions for professionals, and how would you differentiate very strongly here between sportsmen and professionals. in light of your comment  And yes to many, pest control is sport. Though a fact often denied.  ?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Deker

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I don't believe it's in anyone's interest to wipe out a particular species on a piece of land. At the end of the day, the aim of shooting is to restore the balance to the countryside to counter the imbalance created by the growth of large food sources in the form of crops. To wipe out everything that's regarded as a pest species causes an imbalance in itself and a knock on for other species eg remove all the rabbits, and foxes and birds of prey can suffer from a lack of food. 

It also doesn't do you the shooter any favours to wipe a piece of land clean leaving nothing to shoot for several years whilst species move back in from other areas. Nor does it do the sport any favour when conservationists and antis look at us and see instances of land being wiped clean. Shooting needs to maintain it's conservation side and image to survive. I believe shooting will only be around in the long term if we as shooters can prove we are contributing to conservation and the eco system, not destroying it by reckless and excess pest control.

Any farmer worth his salt will also know the importance of maintaining a natural balance and of keeping species in check rather than going for total extermination. Those that don't need educating rather than catering to.

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7 hours ago, Alsone said:

I don't believe it's in anyone's interest to wipe out a particular species on a piece of land. At the end of the day, the aim of shooting is to restore the balance to the countryside to counter the imbalance created by the growth of large food sources in the form of crops. To wipe out everything that's regarded as a pest species causes an imbalance in itself and a knock on for other species eg remove all the rabbits, and foxes and birds of prey can suffer from a lack of food. 

It also doesn't do you the shooter any favours to wipe a piece of land clean leaving nothing to shoot for several years whilst species move back in from other areas. Nor does it do the sport any favour when conservationists and antis look at us and see instances of land being wiped clean. Shooting needs to maintain it's conservation side and image to survive. I believe shooting will only be around in the long term if we as shooters can prove we are contributing to conservation and the eco system, not destroying it by reckless and excess pest control.

Any farmer worth his salt will also know the importance of maintaining a natural balance and of keeping species in check rather than going for total extermination. Those that don't need educating rather than catering to.

Are you kidding?  What is that rubbish? 

Of course it is in lots of peoples interest to wipe out certain species on certain pieces of land!   Don't you think it would be in YOUR interest if I wiped out that wasp nest in the entrance porch to your house?  Do you really want the rats running around at the bottom of your garden where your young children play?  Rabbits are public enemy No1 round most stables/liveries/studs, causing damage/injury/even death to horses and riders.  Foxes are not appreciated around the chicken farms, and you will not get any thanks from sheep farmers leaving a few about at lambing either, etc.  Rabbits, Squirrels and Deer are not wanted round the Golf courses or Christmas tree farms etc.,. The Owners don't need educating about the balance of nature, they want their pest problem wiped out, but a level of control is about the best most can expect from even seasoned professionals!

Do your research, there are more rabbits around now than 60+ years ago when mixxy was introduced, what has any shooter wiped out in this country?  Wiping out a pest species on a piece of land does not cause an imbalance, it redresses the balance, that's why it is a pest species.  The Government wants the Grey Squirrel wiped out, and you would get a big pat on the back by wiping out the Canada Goose in a lot of inland areas in England, they are a pest species taking over to the determent of many other species!

Edited by Deker
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5 hours ago, Deker said:

:hmm::hmm::hmm:

prog·ress

 (prŏg′rĕs′, -rəs, prō′grĕs′)     To develop, advance, or improve:

 

Nobody is making you use any sort of advanced targeting systems, just like nobody is stopping you running after a rabbit and throwing stones at it in the hope you may get lucky.  Just where should progress stop in your opinion with regards Sport shooting?

I rather suspect there were those that said, rifles threaten the future, improved ammunition threatens the future, scopes threaten the future, lamping threatens the future, pest controllers and poison and gas, etc., etc., etc., threaten the future....... there are more rabbits in the UK now than when Mixxy was introduced, so just how/why does this threaten the future so much?

Progress does not differentiate between sectors or job description!

It is PROGRESS, whether you like it or not is another matter. 

As regards a renaissance of fieldcraft, perhaps we should all just use .22Lr, then why not Air rifles only, too much progress there, catapults and bows and arrows, heaven forbid, they are levels of progress, lets develop fieldcraft with a club, wait for the rabbit to walk by then hit it over the head, nope, a club is progress, lets just jump on it, I know, better still, stand around with our mouth open and hope food will simply drop into it! :laugh:

ATB!  :thumbs:

 

PS

Kind of you not to ban anything yet, would this be a blanket ban when you introduced it, or would it have exceptions for professionals, and how would you differentiate very strongly here between sportsmen and professionals. in light of your comment  And yes to many, pest control is sport. Though a fact often denied.  ?

 

 

 

 

Yeah cheers for explaining to me the definition of progress... The bit you don't seem to have grasped is the metric by which you measure progress and the fact that it might be subjective. I'll leave you to have a patronising argument with anybody else on this forum.

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8 hours ago, Deker said:

Are you kidding?  What is that rubbish? 

Of course it is in lots of peoples interest to wipe out certain species on certain pieces of land!   Don't you think it would be in YOUR interest if I wiped out that wasp nest in the entrance porch to your house?  Do you really want the rats running around at the bottom of your garden where your young children play?  Rabbits are public enemy No1 round most stables/liveries/studs, causing damage/injury/even death to horses and riders.  Foxes are not appreciated around the chicken farms, and you will not get any thanks from sheep farmers leaving a few about at lambing either, etc.  Rabbits, Squirrels and Deer are not wanted round the Golf courses or Christmas tree farms etc.,. The Owners don't need educating about the balance of nature, they want their pest problem wiped out, but a level of control is about the best most can expect from even seasoned professionals!

Do your research, there are more rabbits around now than 60+ years ago when mixxy was introduced, what has any shooter wiped out in this country?  Wiping out a pest species on a piece of land does not cause an imbalance, it redresses the balance, that's why it is a pest species.  The Government wants the Grey Squirrel wiped out, and you would get a big pat on the back by wiping out the Canada Goose in a lot of inland areas in England, they are a pest species taking over to the determent of many other species!

I fully expect you to take a different view being a professional pest controller, although a loss of shooting means a loss of income for you.

Rats yes. The other species you list are more nuisances to people and their activities in growing crops / maintaining golf courses, than dangers to public health. If you were to take a nationwide poll of the whole population then I'd reckon a very high percentage of the population, and certainly a majority would say that ALL pest control should be banned, and that farmers should just have to live with nature and the losses that result. I wouldn't be surprised to see it at or approaching 90%. That's not a view I take, but we live in a country that everyday is turning more and more against any means of controlling the countryside, even where it is to correct an imbalance (most people don't appreciate the relationship between crops, food supply and pests and are swayed by urban conservationists arguments).

Yes I'm fully aware of the position 60 years ago between the Government, public and rabbits. But that was 60 years ago and attitudes have changed. No government could ever consider such an introduction today. Look at the controversy just a small limited badger cull has caused. Attitudes have changed and most urban people see all animals as small and cuddly and that nature should be allowed to take it's course no matter what the consequences. I know a golf club groundsman and even he tells me he finds rabbits cute and is reluctant to allow anyone to control them. As for deer, he prefers to use shields around young trees.

Also, to see attitudes just look at the flurry of Shark Attacks in the Northern Territories in Australia or on Re-union island. Despite multiple deaths, a large proportion of the population think the sharks shouldn't be culled. That's the way attitudes have changed. They'd rather people were eaten or banned from swimming than have wildlife displaced or removed.

Ultimately there will be more and more calls for shooting to be banned (including pest control), and ultimately if shooting is not shown to be contributing to conservation but instead wiping out species in some areas, then it only feeds the antis and the calls for a ban. If shooting survives another 50 years in this country without being totally banned, I'll be very surprised in any event.

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5 hours ago, foxtrotoscar said:

Nice haul there, but had they all got mixy? 

As I was there helping with the shooting and gutting of those, i cant recall I noticed any signs of mixy on any, they were all perfectly healthy looking. The land we took these from is very productive land and a loss of a number like this really is only a couple of percent of the true population, we'd probably be able to repeat this several times a month and still leave plenty to go at the next season. 

As Ian said, he has a LOT of permission with a lot of pests that the landowners want gone, be it rats, rabbits, foxes and corvids etc. 

I have a couple of tiny plots in comparison and they are wick too, thing is, they are bordered by roads, public walkways or land I dont have permission for, so in those areas, a good night might yeild 10 or 12 a night, much better than the 3 or 4 I used to be able to get in daylight before I got the NV and thermal kit.

The farmers still wants the numbers down and, like most farmers I know, they appreciate that the best they will get is the numbers down as opposed to a near impossible eradication of the beggars, besides, I want to keep some continued sport for the future so do "self manage" the numbers as I see fit. Similar with hares, a few farmers want them gone to disuade those with lamps and dogs running amok and leaving gates open... where as others want them leaving alone. I'm quite fond of seeing them around so will leave them be until asked specifically to do something about them. Its amazing how often the trigger is pulled and they just run off...😉

 

 

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1 hour ago, Premier Pistol said:

As I was there helping with the shooting and gutting of those, i cant recall I noticed any signs of mixy on any, they were all perfectly healthy looking. The land we took these from is very productive land and a loss of a number like this really is only a couple of percent of the true population, we'd probably be able to repeat this several times a month and still leave plenty to go at the next season. 

As Ian said, he has a LOT of permission with a lot of pests that the landowners want gone, be it rats, rabbits, foxes and corvids etc. 

I have a couple of tiny plots in comparison and they are wick too, thing is, they are bordered by roads, public walkways or land I dont have permission for, so in those areas, a good night might yeild 10 or 12 a night, much better than the 3 or 4 I used to be able to get in daylight before I got the NV and thermal kit.

The farmers still wants the numbers down and, like most farmers I know, they appreciate that the best they will get is the numbers down as opposed to a near impossible eradication of the beggars, besides, I want to keep some continued sport for the future so do "self manage" the numbers as I see fit. Similar with hares, a few farmers want them gone to disuade those with lamps and dogs running amok and leaving gates open... where as others want them leaving alone. I'm quite fond of seeing them around so will leave them be until asked specifically to do something about them. Its amazing how often the trigger is pulled and they just run off...😉

 

 

I wasn't being critical, but from the limited number of rabbit heads on show in the photo, it's clear (to me at least) that mixy is present there.  The rabbit shown at the bottom of the photo is clearly suffering mixy and the others that I can see show the tell tell signs I expect from that disease.  As I said I'm not being critical, as they need dispatching even more so.  I find on my permissions that they hang around when in the open to the crack of the HMR, as they are confused and blind and slow to run.

Edited by foxtrotoscar
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14 minutes ago, foxtrotoscar said:

I wasn't being critical, but from the limited number of rabbit heads on show in the photo, it's clear (to me at least) that mixy is present there.  The rabbit shown at the bottom of the photo is clearly suffering mixy and the others that I can see show the tell tell signs I expect from that disease.  As I said I'm not being critical, as they need dispatching even more so.  I find on my permissions that they hang around when in the open,  to the crack of the HMR as they are confused and blind and slow to run.

Bloody good eyesight mate... I honestly cant recall seeing anything. Anyway

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

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I don’t recall any having Mixy either , good post Paul , as you say, they just keep coming year on year , filtering from surrounding areas and need controlled. 

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