Brexit Thread Redux

[Born Hunter 17,628]

14 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

Do they have Britain over a barrel or is it that our best of the best aren't worth a carrot at negotiating?

Yes and probably yes. Just look at the trade and economy figures, it's clear as day they have the advantage and they are behaving as such. Our (UK & EU) objectives are mutually exclusive, there's no compromise to be had without one side crossing their own ideological red lines.

Problem then is that 99% of our establishment (HM Gov' & Parliament) only became pro brexit after the referendum. Their objectives aren't the same as ours, there objectives are to separate as much as possible while protecting the economy at all costs.

Let's be honest with that strategy you haven't a hope in hell. The EU won't budge because they have the high ground and the force to not need to. They have the priveledge to be stubborn.

And I come back to jiggys comment and ask again when has the US, China, Japan or Russia faced such a situation? The EU is unique in this world in the level of political union it has without quite being a full nation state. We've become so dependant and entangled with a much more powerful entity that to expect equal standing at the divorce negotiation table is foolish.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

5 minutes ago, W. Katchum said:

Somebody wanna put all this nonsense into idiots terms for the resident thicko?

Britain leaves EU.

EU initiates divorce proceedings.

Britain hires worst solicitors imaginable to negotiate the divorce settlement.

EU gets the house, the car, and the kids.

Britain has to pay £40bn for child support.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

Just now, W. Katchum said:

Do we get a funky bachelor pad an a sports car to play with after it’s all done?

[Born Hunter 17,628]

Frankly the moment the EU started taking charge of how the negotiations would go and treating the UK like a minor in the whole matter I'd have told them to suck my dick in bureaucrat lingo and walked. You can't go into that sort of negotiation without a willingness to watch the world burn and expect to better a much more powerful opposition.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

Born. Joking aside it seems like a bad deal from this side of the pond. One side you've got a coalition of bureaucrats with a few billion to lose. On the other side, you've got a collection of politicians who didn't really believe this would happen. Don't support the public opinion despite being civil servants but fortunately for them, they are backed by 60 million people that would rather watch the telly.

I honestly don't see how this can be won with what is essentially a local authority mentality. They're trying to change international policy with a council meeting and fond memories of the empire and it seems they're expecting everyone else to view it that way too. It's frankly baffling and I have that feeling in my stomach like I did when I watched Star Wars Kid on YouTube for the first time.

[Born Hunter 17,628]

1 minute ago, ChrisJones said:

Born. Joking aside it seems like a bad deal from this side of the pond. One side you've got a coalition of bureaucrats with a few billion to lose. On the other side, you've got a collection of politicians who didn't really believe this would happen. Don't support the public opinion despite being civil servants but fortunately for them, they are backed by 60 million people that would rather watch the telly.

I honestly don't see how this can be won with what is essentially a local authority mentality. They're trying to change international policy with a council meeting and fond memories of the empire and it seems they're expecting everyone else to view it that way too. It's frankly baffling and I have that feeling in my stomach like I did when I watched Star Wars Kid on YouTube for the first time.

There's an argument to be made that on such constitutionally ground shaking matters there should be a two thirds majority to ensure there is the will to see it through..... an argument, not one I'm convinced by. LOL LOL

The one thing I'm taking from this is that we will have greater freedom by the end of it..... hopefully! And I've played my part in causing some shit for the establishment. I'm turning into a bit of an anarchist!

 

[JohnGalway 1,043]

46 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

Right wing of the Tory party aren't in power fella, they're UKIP. 

They very much are in power. Firstly May is propped up by the DUP, she cannot afford to lose any votes from her own party. In that instance the tail is capable of wagging the dog. Second, wrong on UKIP,  if that were true why have they no seats in the House of Commons? Support for UKIP melted back into the right wing of the Tories after the referendum. Besides all of that being in power or no doesn't disallow one from making plans that have have rooting and substance in the real world. From the outside looking in it appears they were totally unprepared and remiss in their duty.

[Born Hunter 17,628]

1 minute ago, JohnGalway said:

They very much are in power. Firstly May is propped up by the DUP, she cannot afford to lose any votes from her own party. In that instance the tail is capable of wagging the dog. Second, wrong on UKIP,  if that were true why have they no seats in the House of Commons? Support for UKIP melted back into the right wing of the Tories after the referendum. Besides all of that being in power or no doesn't disallow one from making plans that have have rooting and substance in the real world. From the outside looking in it appears they were totally unprepared and remiss in their duty.

That tiny majority doesn't give the right power so much as it makes their compliance necessary for the tories having any power at all. Those that want a no compromise brexit have no power. You may think otherwise.

And we're still at a huge disadvantage in negotiations. Whether we have a strong government or not.

[VOON 1,313]

3 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

Britain leaves EU.

EU initiates divorce proceedings.

Britain hires worst solicitors imaginable to negotiate the divorce settlement.

EU gets the house, the car, and the kids.

Britain has to pay £40bn for child support.

So what's the point then.....no 40 Bn....stay in....nothing changing??

[ChrisJones 7,973]

3 minutes ago, VOON said:

So what's the point then.....no 40 Bn....stay in....nothing changing??

You're asking the wrong chap. I'm simply viewing this from the Eagle's Nest. I left Britain and sought asylum in the colonies sighting political persecution!

[jiggy 3,207]

3 hours ago, Born Hunter said:

Yes and probably yes. Just look at the trade and economy figures, it's clear as day they have the advantage and they are behaving as such. Our (UK & EU) objectives are mutually exclusive, there's no compromise to be had without one side crossing their own ideological red lines.

Problem then is that 99% of our establishment (HM Gov' & Parliament) only became pro brexit after the referendum. Their objectives aren't the same as ours, there objectives are to separate as much as possible while protecting the economy at all costs.

Let's be honest with that strategy you haven't a hope in hell. The EU won't budge because they have the high ground and the force to not need to. They have the priveledge to be stubborn.

And I come back to jiggys comment and ask again when has the US, China, Japan or Russia faced such a situation? The EU is unique in this world in the level of political union it has without quite being a full nation state. We've become so dependant and entangled with a much more powerful entity that to expect equal standing at the divorce negotiation table is foolish.

I was generalising about bullying when naming those countries, putin told the whole world to fcuk off and mind their business when he entered Ukraine. America doesn't take opinions off of other countries when it is sticking its nose in everyone's business and China won't be told what to do by anyone and everybody is slightly afraid of Jap technology so they just leave them alone. There was no major backlash after. I don't see what the moaning is about that is directed away from the UK. Britain voted to leave and leave they can but don't expect the red carpet rolled out by the people your trying to distance yourselves from. If British people want to do something constructive then demonstrate overthrow the government start a new one and go back to the negotiating table because it's their government that excepted the terms so whose fault is that. This escapade ( piss poor deal) is down to a few people at the top trying to hold on to power by their fingertips. If they were removed then no doubt things would be different.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

12 minutes ago, jiggy said:

I was generalising about bullying when naming those countries, putin told the whole world to fcuk off and mind their business when he entered Ukraine. America doesn't take opinions off of other countries when it is sticking its nose in everyone's business and China won't be told what to do by anyone and everybody is slightly afraid of Jap technology so they just leave them alone. There was no major backlash after. I don't see what the moaning is about that is directed away from the UK. Britain voted to leave and leave they can but don't expect the red carpet rolled out by the people your trying to distance yourselves from. If British people want to do something constructive then demonstrate overthrow the government start a new one and go back to the negotiating table because it's their government that excepted the terms so whose fault is that. This escapade ( piss poor deal) is down to a few people at the top trying to hold on to power by their fingertips. If they were removed then no doubt things would be different.

That brings me back to the point that 60 million people would rather watch the television. You can't keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results. The biggest surprise in the whole debacle, for me, was that everyone just kinda walked away from it when the vote came in.

[Born Hunter 17,628]

25 minutes ago, jiggy said:

I was generalising about bullying when naming those countries, putin told the whole world to fcuk off and mind their business when he entered Ukraine. America doesn't take opinions off of other countries when it is sticking its nose in everyone's business and China won't be told what to do by anyone and everybody is slightly afraid of Jap technology so they just leave them alone. There was no major backlash after. I don't see what the moaning is about that is directed away from the UK. Britain voted to leave and leave they can but don't expect the red carpet rolled out by the people your trying to distance yourselves from. If British people want to do something constructive then demonstrate overthrow the government start a new one and go back to the negotiating table because it's their government that excepted the terms so whose fault is that. This escapade ( piss poor deal) is down to a few people at the top trying to hold on to power by their fingertips. If they were removed then no doubt things would be different.

America's economy is the largest in the world. They don't have to give a shit in trade talks. But then Obama's administration did back down on striking Assad when the UK Commons voted not to support him! Ballsy eh.

It appears Russia knew damn well NATO wouldn't do squat. Theyve suffered sanctions but the affects of the oil downturn has dwarfed those. Annexing crimea was bold but then Russia have never allowed themselves to become dependant in the way we have with the EU. Same with the US and China really.

China are a independent heavyweight like the US, I can't think of a situation where they have been at such a disadvantage as we are now.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Born Hunter

[Born Hunter 17,628]

5 minutes ago, ChrisJones said:

That brings me back to the point that 60 million people would rather watch the television. You can't keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results. The biggest surprise in the whole debacle, for me, was that everyone just kinda walked away from it when the vote came in.

Mate, we made a bold choice in a referendum and then had a very democratic general election to allow us to decide how we want brexit to go down. What did we do...... went straight back to same old party politics bullshit and forgot all about the referendum we had few months prior.

[BGD 6,385]

The average bloke on the street just isn't that invested in leaving the EU, the vote was more about giving a black eye to the establishment for a huge amount of folk than anything to do with the EU. Once the vote was done and the establishment's eye was blackened that was job done in their minds, they've no interest in how negotiations are going or what the final deal looks like and won't care unless it start impacting on their daily lives.