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Found these old photos of Bill, Doug and Stan when we were at Bill's place, he is holding a dog that he gave me. The photos of the terriers are non-descript northern working terriers photos taken arou

Thanks mate . Bit further back than I have so glad I asked . The Ulswater dog , if anyone is interested was called Rusty if all checks out ., bred by R Tomlinson . . The name Davey then reappears with

I had two dogs from Bill, one was a black and tan bitch that was average the other was a black rough coated demon. It was too aggressive with people and decided to wake from sleeping by my feet one ev

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I'm sure there is a page or two in the original terriers and terriermen book think that might the info on his dogs in sure it would most probably go back to the bray/buck stuff that was around at the time 

 

I could be wrong tho

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11 hours ago, foxdropper said:

With respect mate ,your probably right but apparently every type or line goes back to them and I don' buy it .I can' see how two men could account for the diversity that followed .

Every line of Patterdale or every type of terrier ?

If you doubt that most fell lines go back to their dogs then I disagree. It's no secret that Frank Buck sold terriers and some of those who benefited by buying of him went on to sell plenty too and spread the gene pool and many of them were good workers.

I would agree with the theory that most, not all, working coloured terriers in the world today have plenty of blood in them going back to Mr Breay and Frank Bucks terriers.

 

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Neil mate ,it's very blinkered to think Buck and Braey were the only terriermen of that decade to produce a working type that was used to create what followed .The bloke that gifted me my first terrier  Norman Dunn from my neck of the woods used to talk of many black type terriers  up North as he put it..He was in his 60s then and talked of these men as old boys so putting them his father's age .My own thoughts are that Buck and Braey were the only two to of put pen to paper but just my thoughts .Anyway mate have a good season ATB, FD 

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Thanks and you too.

Did Frank Buck or Cyril Breay ever put pen to paper ? Certainly they were often wrote about but I don't think they wrote much, if anything ?

And no one has said they were the "only terriermen of that decade" . They worked their terriers and had a major influence on the breeding of terriers in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and to this day, Mr Breay having died in the 70s, Mr Buck the 90s, if memory serves me right.

But it's nothing to be surprised about. Nearly every single breed or type of dog has one or two good breeders behind it,

Take the Foxhound for instance. You have maybe a few hundred kennels of Foxhounds around the globe, all with several couple. Yet nearly all can be traced back to  a handful of great breeders.

So why couldn't a type of terrier that globally has a population of a few thousand not have the blood of a few terriers that were working in the 70s in them.

On a personal level I have a bitch here who has Breays Rusty in her at least 16 times and he was working in the early 60s. But Rusty is in her from different matings that all came together to make my bitch. So IMO Buck and Breays terriers were used regularly at stud.

Thank God too.

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I'm no top geneticist but I've done plenty of reading and research, and I've got to agree with Neil on this one.

Buck and Breay (and maybe a few of their mates that don't get mentioned but kept the same stuff) were the ones that started with the blacks in say 50's ish?, then the next generation (Nuttall, Gould, Westmoreland, Stacey, Brightmore) . All the men mentioned, when interviewed for books etc over the years, say basically the same thing, that they got their dogs from the men mentioned or something to do with them.

And I'll guarantee now for certain that if you ask any man who keeps digging terriers (and knows their pedigrees)what line their dogs go back to they'll say at least one of the names in brackets.

Like Neil says, it's got to have started with a small gene pool and slowly expanded and spread out depending on which dog or bitch you followed. Resulting in what we have today.

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the size shape and temprement of the dogs Bill brightmore kept was similar to the lakies sporting ped lines. seriously gassy feckers.  just my ten peneth . cowan midleton etc mey be breay and buck terriers in them but they took more to the fell/lakie.  he bred some very smart terriers that worked well. and there are one or to lads with this stuff north of the border. 

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On 13/11/2017 at 20:56, Lozzer said:

What does Gassy mean in terriers?,  and from what I heard the remark as ,iam guessing some type of hard type which starts off hard but maybe not so much after a while, or resulting in its foe slipping away? 

fiery fuckers.  

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On 11/6/2017 at 21:11, Rabbit Hunter said:

I'm no top geneticist but I've done plenty of reading and research, and I've got to agree with Neil on this one.

Buck and Breay (and maybe a few of their mates that don't get mentioned but kept the same stuff) were the ones that started with the blacks in say 50's ish?, then the next generation (Nuttall, Gould, Westmoreland, Stacey, Brightmore) . All the men mentioned, when interviewed for books etc over the years, say basically the same thing, that they got their dogs from the men mentioned or something to do with them.

And I'll guarantee now for certain that if you ask any man who keeps digging terriers (and knows their pedigrees)what line their dogs go back to they'll say at least one of the names in brackets.

Like Neil says, it's got to have started with a small gene pool and slowly expanded and spread out depending on which dog or bitch you followed. Resulting in what we have today.

Why does it have to come from one small gene pool? The black dog has so many varying types which suggests that it could have started in several areas of the country from several different dogs. Lads would have been breeding black dogs all over the north, from the lakes to the mining towns of lancs and would never have seen buck or breay, due to transport. Its common knowledge the black dog came from infusing bull, and im sure buck breay werent the only lads doing it with success.

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