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Eureka!!

So my young dog isn't a natural retriever, and I'm not a natural thrower. Or remotely Grrrr, .... (poor little dog).

But today (after a YEAR of ineffectual ball games, consisting mainly of him running around with ball in mouth for ages) we chanced upon a context where bringing the ball back to me for another go, (eyes all tuned in dark, body all charged up, us two sharing the moment) happened.

Half an hour of my pathetic spastic throwing, into rock pools; bounces, twists, splashes, skids.

It was ACE! We are happy.

(Probs all go tits up tomoz, but, just for now.... )

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Eureka!!

So my young dog isn't a natural retriever, and I'm not a natural thrower. Or remotely Grrrr, .... (poor little dog).

But today (after a YEAR of ineffectual ball games, consisting mainly of him running around with ball in mouth for ages) we chanced upon a context where bringing the ball back to me for another go, (eyes all tuned in dark, body all charged up, us two sharing the moment) happened.

Half an hour of my pathetic spastic throwing, into rock pools; bounces, twists, splashes, skids.

It was ACE! We are happy.

(Probs all go tits up tomoz, but, just for now.... )

 

bloody superb well done. I don't give up on much but i have to admit my dog is not even remotely close to fetching sod all lol. This describes mine to a T (after a YEAR of ineffectual ball games, consisting mainly of him running around with ball in mouth for ages)

Good for you :thumbs:

Edited by terryd

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Eureka!!

So my young dog isn't a natural retriever, and I'm not a natural thrower. Or remotely Grrrr, .... (poor little dog).

But today (after a YEAR of ineffectual ball games, consisting mainly of him running around with ball in mouth for ages) we chanced upon a context where bringing the ball back to me for another go, (eyes all tuned in dark, body all charged up, us two sharing the moment) happened.

Half an hour of my pathetic spastic throwing, into rock pools; bounces, twists, splashes, skids.

It was ACE! We are happy.

(Probs all go tits up tomoz, but, just for now.... )

bloody superb well done. I don't give up on much but i have to admit my dog is not even remotely close to fetching sod all lol. This describes mine to a T (after a YEAR of ineffectual ball games, consisting mainly of him running around with ball in mouth for ages)

Good for you :thumbs:

Ah thanks Terry. And you're too modest. I've been reading your posts since I've been looking on here and have had so much inspiration from you.

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What does you dog like more than anything? If you can find something it loves then you are on to a winner, odds are you think you are doing one exercise but are actually doing more, you have to deconstruct each exercise right down to basics.

 

If you can get it hooked on squeaky toys, or something else you are on to a winner but there are tricks to doing this that aren't blindingly obvious. I'll tell you what I do if you like but you know your dog and what interests it, also the age is important, I could probably sort out my lab to some extent but it would take a huge amount of work and I fail to see the point at this stage :D

 

Your dog will retrieve if you really want it too :)

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You can't throw, you've got to be young?

 

Throwing was the main entertainment when I was a boy, everyone about my age can throw to a fashion.

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You can't throw, you've got to be young?

 

Throwing was the main entertainment when I was a boy, everyone about my age can throw to a fashion.

 

Except women....they mostly can't throw :laugh:

 

My wife can't throw either, she threw a ball for the pup and it hit me in the shoulder :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

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You can't throw, you've got to be young?

 

Throwing was the main entertainment when I was a boy, everyone about my age can throw to a fashion.

 

Except women....they mostly can't throw :laugh:

 

My wife can't throw either, she threw a ball for the pup and it hit me in the shoulder :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

We had a saying if you couldn't throw it was "you throw like a girl." :laugh:

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You can't throw, you've got to be young?

 

Throwing was the main entertainment when I was a boy, everyone about my age can throw to a fashion.

 

Except women....they mostly can't throw :laugh:

 

My wife can't throw either, she threw a ball for the pup and it hit me in the shoulder :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

We had a saying if you couldn't throw it was "you throw like a girl." :laugh:

 

 

Ha ha I think Squeamish is a lady :)

 

When the wife throws both the dog and I are looking in the opposite direction to where the ball goes :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

Squeamish....get a catapult type launcher, I have one they're great but you have to get the basics sorted out first....see original post

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My throwing is so bad, I think it's what 'throws like a girl' is based on.

 

Nik, I don't think I should be allowed near a catapault.

Generally, if I throw the ball any distance with the wanger thingy, his pleasure seems to come from the running, rather than from me or the ball. So even though I take a spare ball, once he's in his joy (running) I become less relevant to his fulfilment. The second ball is a distraction, rather than a looked for pleasure.

If that makes sense.

 

What was so enjoyable and successful about this particular half hour of 'fetch' was that me and him were in a bubble of experience together, while he was fired up.

It was low tide on a steep beach, so we were physically contained by the environment. It didn't matter that the ball only went a few feet, the bounce off the rocks or splashes in the shallows kept the energy going, between me, dog and ball.

Probably trivial to most, but a first for us.

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My throwing is so bad, I think it's what 'throws like a girl' is based on.

 

Nik, I don't think I should be allowed near a catapault.

Generally, if I throw the ball any distance with the wanger thingy, his pleasure seems to come from the running, rather than from me or the ball. So even though I take a spare ball, once he's in his joy (running) I become less relevant to his fulfilment. The second ball is a distraction, rather than a looked for pleasure.

If that makes sense.

 

What was so enjoyable and successful about this particular half hour of 'fetch' was that me and him were in a bubble of experience together, while he was fired up.

It was low tide on a steep beach, so we were physically contained by the environment. It didn't matter that the ball only went a few feet, the bounce off the rocks or splashes in the shallows kept the energy going, between me, dog and ball.

Probably trivial to most, but a first for us.

 

What your explaining is a dog in drive mode , he's in the zone and totally focused on you,

 

When that can be extended to include distractions ,you've become the most exciting object in the dogs environment, and that gives control and real connection ,

What I would do now is use that drive connection to train whatever you like, the prize being the ball ,

Another element of that drive control is that the dog tunes in to its handler and wants to engage ,

 

The point I've tried to make on here is the dog will make itself fit into any social situation, without having discipline or corrections if it can through its owner express its prey making drive, it's how a pack works,

 

When you reach that level of control where the dog will ignore everything in its environment but you , the dog begins to feel what you feel and if something doesn't feel good for you it won't feel good for him, that's the definition of a trained dog , best of luck

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I got the cocker addicted to the squeaky ball but she almost never gets it, the regular ball is what I throw for her, when she picks it up and brings it back if I spot any hesitation or she slows down a couple of squeaks retrains her focus. But to get to that point I had to make the squeaky ball an object of total obsession...she will do anything for it but I am not sure if I can put into words how I achieved it.

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My throwing is so bad, I think it's what 'throws like a girl' is based on.

 

Nik, I don't think I should be allowed near a catapault.

Generally, if I throw the ball any distance with the wanger thingy, his pleasure seems to come from the running, rather than from me or the ball. So even though I take a spare ball, once he's in his joy (running) I become less relevant to his fulfilment. The second ball is a distraction, rather than a looked for pleasure.

If that makes sense.

 

What was so enjoyable and successful about this particular half hour of 'fetch' was that me and him were in a bubble of experience together, while he was fired up.

It was low tide on a steep beach, so we were physically contained by the environment. It didn't matter that the ball only went a few feet, the bounce off the rocks or splashes in the shallows kept the energy going, between me, dog and ball.

Probably trivial to most, but a first for us.

 

What your explaining is a dog in drive mode , he's in the zone and totally focused on you,

 

When that can be extended to include distractions ,you've become the most exciting object in the dogs environment, and that gives control and real connection ,

What I would do now is use that drive connection to train whatever you like, the prize being the ball ,

Another element of that drive control is that the dog tunes in to its handler and wants to engage ,

 

The point I've tried to make on here is the dog will make itself fit into any social situation, without having discipline or corrections if it can through its owner express its prey making drive, it's how a pack works,

 

When you reach that level of control where the dog will ignore everything in its environment but you , the dog begins to feel what you feel and if something doesn't feel good for you it won't feel good for him, that's the definition of a trained dog , best of luck

Casso, thanks for your reply.

I avidly read your posts and have been applying your advice to my dog as best I can, and with reasonable success within the confines of our circumstances, since I got him over a year ago.

Its the engaging his drive thing that is the tricky part for me, not just because I am not a natural dog handler, but mainly because the predator part of his dogginess is the part I have least affinity with.

I don't like running, can't catch and couldn't kill anything, and he's a sighthound. (Match made in heaven, lol).

We're back in the sticks for a week, and my recent brief success with 'fetch' hasn't had any great impact on his determination to race round next doors fields after the rabbits. It's a joy to watch, but he is certainly not under close control. (He's fine with horses, avoids cattle, and next door is cool with him being there).

 

But he's a great little dog and we'll get there. And are enjoying the journey. Which is probably what it's all about.

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What's it comes down to ultimately is what the dog feels is the best use for its energy,

 

If the dog has been worked , the call of the wild will hold more weight , as compared to the frustration of chasing a ball , ball work will on occasions leave a driven dog with a energy output which falls short of input

 

Which in other words means if he is highly stimulated by a small bouncy object, he can only offload a relatively small amount of energy to catch it , which means the big input has outweighed the small amount of energy expressed , he's at a short fall

 

Now a dog that has worked , stimulated by the sight of a small bouncy rabbit, the dog is loaded up on energy, chases courses twists turns strikes misses back up the hill and catches and gets to sink its teeth into nice warm bunny, for the dog is n heaven , bliss for the dog , he got stimulated and got to expend everything and got his heavy warn prize , well what can ya say that's what's he's bred for

 

The frustration of one will lead to the second if you let it , a tug item has a higher return to the dog by far when stimulated as far as energy expended goes, he gets to have a really good work out , 5 mins on a tug item gives a deeper emotional connection that 1 hours fetch , it's up close and personal , he's not running away expending drive on something else, he right in front , very easy to offer commands to

 

trust the dog, he was born social and to social theyl return if given a chance , get him on a long line, get a tug item let him work it a bit and let him win (everytime ) he's bringing his catch and killing it with you , something he can't do with a ball

 

It's basically mechanically manipulating certain behaviours which offer the dog a bigger bang for his buck , the killing action as by far the biggest and best expression a dog can feel, it's the feel good factor every dog wants and all because it completely drains the tank ,

Best of luck

 

What I would focus on as well is, making the dog feel safe in or around you, that's usually where the tell is, how does the dog act in that metre around us , can the dog sustain a certain mindset in that space, dogs frequently drop short or turn to one side to chew or mouth

 

Building trust that I can reliably expect takes up to two years, it's not a quick fix but no matter what you train or how you train it , if the dog is holding fear , it will show , when it's energy levels get to high, it will not be able to obey commands and for no other reason than its owner has consistently tried to cap the dog as a pup by corrections or discipline when energy levels were too high or just trying to enforce basic commands on an underage pup,

Best of luck ,

hand feeding is a big help too

Edited by Casso
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Building trust is another way of saying, the dogs own resistance to us is been broken down as well ,

 

The dog functions in a predator/prey mindset , that's how his mind is constructed that's the only way he can feel the world around him

Everything has a predator/prey ratio to the dog from completely prey like (soft toys) to an oncoming bear (predator)

 

We also fall somewhere on the scale according to how the dog feels about us and all he can go on are past experiences , positive and negetive in order words have we corrected him for what we thought was the right think to do so he could behave itself and learn how to live in our human world

Corrections cause resistance, resistance to us /our space / when excitement levels get to high , resistance promotes our predator essence to the dog , we become more predator like ,

 

The dog is programmed to be attracted to the most prey like object when stimulated and that's exactly why dominance breaks down when excitement is thrown into the mix , the dog cannot be attracted to the most predator like object in its environment , when a prey like object is on offer , it will always choose the path of least resistance , energy /stimulation has to flow it can't flow up hill to us the resistance is too much , so it's pulled towards whatever has arroused it cat , dog , chicken , people whatever it feels has a more preyfull essence

 

Every interaction effects how high or low we are on that prey/predator ratio, it's not a thinking process, the phrase Gut Instincts would be a better tell of how a dog functions

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Penny makes a point in CMW this week about the use of a tug item in relation to dogs giving up their catch, I haven't used a tug item for a problem such as this , which to me is a temperament issue , (who wants it more)

 

But the point made about the advantages of engaging with the dog In this way still remain, the point being that when a dog is stimulated , he is invested with an energy , he whole body get stiff and still , it's not a state the dog is comfortable with, so he has to act but here's the thing , the dog doesn't care how he shakes off the feeling as long as he brings his system back to equilibrium again , which is why a man in a padded suit can drive a protection dog crazy , a dog origanilly bred to herd sheep can be beguiled to invest every ounce of energy biting foam and fabric,

 

It's not the tug or bite item that important in any case , it's the rewarding action brought about by stimulation and the subsequent release of tension and feeling of grounding , just like stress and the grounding of a stressful feeling into a punch bag or similar

 

Two dogs on a rabbit is a slightly different especially if caught quick because the stimulation needed to catch the bunny can be still in the system (when stimulated the dog is loaded with a huge amount of energy needed to bring that item to ground) and when a dog physical output falls short of input (stimulation ) the energy has to go somewhere , it's a lot harder to hand over a bunny when you've got a tremendous amount of energy circulating in your system , which is also why a dog will take off around the field like a sprinter after catching, he still has stimulation to ground

 

Like wolves on a carcass, the prey animal charges then up but the energy has nowhere to go unlike when they were all in flow together in the hunt , a pack can only work because of the hunt thats the social element of the pack , static is difficult for wolves/ dog because the feeling of flow is gone and instincts take over,

Edited by Casso
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