Big Cat Sighting

[ChrisJones 7,973]

I,ve said it before mate hybridisation is a real problem in cats this is a pumard, a leopar/puma hybrid that was bred for the wealthy in the early 1900,s ligers are quite common which is a lion tiger hybrid and there is a guy in the states that is trying to recreate the sabre tooth tiger through hybridisation and he recons he is one cross away, so with the low population in England hybrids are a very real issue hence a lot of the cat sightings here are a bit tough to ID because there is a strong possibility they are strange crosses, a common side effect of the puma leopard cross was dwarfism which made them look even more appealing as pets but a nightmare to ID if you happened across one

Wouldn't hybrids cause the population to drop, though? There would be and increase in sterile offspring?

Edited June 27, 2017 by ChrisJones

[beast 1,884]

Some are sterile others are not so. For example most ligers are sterile but there have been occasional second generation bred back to lions or tigers. Just like the occasional mule is sterile.

 

Some of the other hybrids may or not be sterile. For example all these exotic x domestics are fertile such as Caracals serval lynx etc

 

So you may even find that the hybrids are not only fertile but that hybrid vigour (heterosis) actually makes them stronger more disease resistant etc and works in their favour.

 

All purely theoretical of course but it makes for an interesting discussion

Edited June 27, 2017 by beast

[Greyman 25,157]

 

I,ve said it before mate hybridisation is a real problem in cats this is a pumard, a leopar/puma hybrid that was bred for the wealthy in the early 1900,s ligers are quite common which is a lion tiger hybrid and there is a guy in the states that is trying to recreate the sabre tooth tiger through hybridisation and he recons he is one cross away, so with the low population in England hybrids are a very real issue hence a lot of the cat sightings here are a bit tough to ID because there is a strong possibility they are strange crosses, a common side effect of the puma leopard cross was dwarfism which made them look even more appealing as pets but a nightmare to ID if you happened across one

 

Wouldn't hybrids cause the population to drop, though? They would be sterile?

the females are often fertile and every now and again a male will be but very rarely and I guess as a man if it's the difference of staying a virgin or shagging something a bit different we all would, I also think if there was a large population hybridisation would be detrimental but as we are talking a very small population just finding a mate is a big task a few hybrids won,t really hurt in the overall scheme of things, its all part of the mystery and the reason people like me wander round the countryside looking for pug marks and fresh kills hoping to find some DNA or tooth pit marks to confirm what killed it and ultimately a crystal clear image on a trail camera

[ChrisJones 7,973]

Some are sterile others are not so. For example most ligers are sterile but there have been occasional second generation bred back to lions or tigers. Just like the occasional mule is sterile.

 

Some of the other hybrids may or not be sterile. For example all these exotic x domestics are fertile such as Caracals serval lynx etc

 

So you may even find that the hybrids are not only fertile but that hybrid vigour (heterosis) actually makes them stronger more disease resistant etc and works in their favour.

 

All purely theoretical of course but it makes for an interesting discussion

 

Absolutely fascinating, it is!

 

I edited the original post. I understand that not all offspring would be sterile but there would be an increase in sterile offspring between the species. I'm hypothesising that that a situation that has a limited gene-pool [exotic cats in the UK] would be further reduced [escaped/released into the wild] and then mating between the species [hybrids].

 

The further remote it gets the less the likelihood of it being a viable long term trend, surely?

 

the females are often fertile and every now and again a male will be but very rarely and I guess as a man if it's the difference of staying a virgin or shagging something a bit different we all would, I also think if there was a large population hybridisation would be detrimental but as we are talking a very small population just finding a mate is a big task a few hybrids won,t really hurt in the overall scheme of things, its all part of the mystery and the reason people like me wander round the countryside looking for pug marks and fresh kills hoping to find some DNA or tooth pit marks to confirm what killed it and ultimately a crystal clear image on a trail camera

Not enough morning coffee on my part!

 

I editted the original post. Indeed not all the offspring would be sterile but there would be an increasing number.

 

To me, at least, the increasing sightings would point towards a pattern of puposely releasing them, as opposed to wild hybrids breeding.

Edited June 27, 2017 by ChrisJones

[Greyman 25,157]

Some are sterile others are not so. For example most ligers are sterile but there have been occasional second generation bred back to lions or tigers. Just like the occasional mule is sterile.

Some of the other hybrids may or not be sterile. For example all these exotic x domestics are fertile such as Caracals serval lynx etc

So you may even find that the hybrids are not only fertile but that hybrid vigour (heterosis) actually makes them stronger more disease resistant etc and works in their favour.

All purely theoretical of course but it makes for an interesting discussion

you explain so much better than me but I think we are on the same page

[beast 1,884]

I expect you are right Chris certainly the founder population would be very small which would lead to a high inbreeding coefficient and in the medium term one of the effects of inbreeding is a drop in fertility. But if there is a population of big cats going back to releases in the 1970s then genetically this is short term. And in the long term (say 50 or 100 generations) a population would either go through the genetic bottleneck and fertility plus other side effects would then increase again, or the population would simply go extinct

[beast 1,884]

 

Some are sterile others are not so. For example most ligers are sterile but there have been occasional second generation bred back to lions or tigers. Just like the occasional mule is sterile.

Some of the other hybrids may or not be sterile. For example all these exotic x domestics are fertile such as Caracals serval lynx etc

So you may even find that the hybrids are not only fertile but that hybrid vigour (heterosis) actually makes them stronger more disease resistant etc and works in their favour.

All purely theoretical of course but it makes for an interesting discussion

you explain so much better than me but I think we are on the same page

I think so greyman. The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between "unlikely" and "impossible"?

[Greyman 25,157]

 

Some are sterile others are not so. For example most ligers are sterile but there have been occasional second generation bred back to lions or tigers. Just like the occasional mule is sterile.

Some of the other hybrids may or not be sterile. For example all these exotic x domestics are fertile such as Caracals serval lynx etc

So you may even find that the hybrids are not only fertile but that hybrid vigour (heterosis) actually makes them stronger more disease resistant etc and works in their favour.

All purely theoretical of course but it makes for an interesting discussion

 

Absolutely fascinating, it is!

 

I edited the original post. I understand that not all offspring would be sterile but there would be an increase in sterile offspring between the species. I'm hypothesising that that a situation that has a limited gene-pool [exotic cats in the UK] would be further reduced [escaped/released into the wild] and then mating between the species [hybrids].

 

The further remote it gets the less the likelihood of it being a viable long term trend, surely?

I have had several sets of Cubs sighted and reported to me this year so all is not lost, I think the population is slowly increasing in the uk but mostly driven by the exploding deer population, it happens throughout nature, loads of voles equals lots of barn owls and kestrels, wet summer loads of worms means loads of blackbirds, were ever an explosion of prey animals occur an explosion of preditors does to, but we have nothing to prey on the deer

[foxdropper 17,092]

All assuming they even exist in the English countryside.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

A big cat will need an average of 2 to 4 percent of its bodyweight per day depending on age activity weather etc. So let's say a 100 lb puma will need say 30kg per week or say one roe deer for arguments sake

 

Going off our local fauna a 100kg Puma concolor can get away with one large deer sized meal, every couple of weeks. I'd certainly think that's sustainable, in the UK, to a point.

 

I expect you are right Chris certainly the founder population would be very small which would lead to a high inbreeding coefficient and in the medium term one of the effects of inbreeding is a drop in fertility. But if there is a population of big cats going back to releases in the 1970s then genetically this is short term. And in the long term (say 50 or 100 generations) a population would either go through the genetic bottleneck and fertility plus other side effects would then increase again, or the population would simply go extinct

 

Agreed but that brings us back to recording the subsequent generations. The lack of publicity [iMO] points towards either a lack of animals [extinction through numbers or lack of diversity], or an agenda to not report for whatever reason that may be.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone is bullshitting. I find this very interesting, but if the numbers of sightings are to be believed it would suggested the latter rather than the former. If Greyman is seeing cubs, and I don't have any reason to claim otherwise, then maybe a combination of wild breeding and private releases?

 

As I've said before on one of the other thread, I live in a place where cats outnumber people. I just hope this thread doesn't invoke GT Law after 6 pages!

Edited June 27, 2017 by ChrisJones

[Greyman 25,157]

 

if you think about all the hounds that run the uk i'm sure they would of stumbled on one by now.

 

I thought i saw one once on christmas day back in 1995ish walking the dog with my parents it was a large black animal didnt move like a dog but was the size of a lab (estimate) but who knows.

Funnily enough I saw one along with 2 other guys when waiting with a terrierman for a hunt to come through near Cheltenham 11 years back. Scared the shit out of all of us, came through about 20 mins before the hounds and everything went quiet as it came through! Birds stopped chirping, rabbits shot in, it was weird! It went passed a 5 bar gate and the hounds took the same track so a size comparison was pretty obvious! All of us turned and said to each other DID YOU SEE THAT???? Never seen anything like it before or since but it was certainly a sandy puma type cat.

it just don't seem right does it, you all know what you saw but still question your own eyes, lucky you were in company as its easier to take in when someone else confirms it, I get lots of people tell me they seen one but are to embarrassed to say anything as they were on there own and no one will believe them

[beast 1,884]

 

Some are sterile others are not so. For example most ligers are sterile but there have been occasional second generation bred back to lions or tigers. Just like the occasional mule is sterile.

 

Some of the other hybrids may or not be sterile. For example all these exotic x domestics are fertile such as Caracals serval lynx etc

 

So you may even find that the hybrids are not only fertile but that hybrid vigour (heterosis) actually makes them stronger more disease resistant etc and works in their favour.

 

All purely theoretical of course but it makes for an interesting discussion

Absolutely fascinating, it is!

 

I edited the original post. I understand that not all offspring would be sterile but there would be an increase in sterile offspring between the species. I'm hypothesising that that a situation that has a limited gene-pool [exotic cats in the UK] would be further reduced [escaped/released into the wild] and then mating between the species [hybrids].

 

The further remote it gets the less the likelihood of it being a viable long term trend, surely?

the females are often fertile and every now and again a male will be but very rarely and I guess as a man if it's the difference of staying a virgin or shagging something a bit different we all would, I also think if there was a large population hybridisation would be detrimental but as we are talking a very small population just finding a mate is a big task a few hybrids won,t really hurt in the overall scheme of things, its all part of the mystery and the reason people like me wander round the countryside looking for pug marks and fresh kills hoping to find some DNA or tooth pit marks to confirm what killed it and ultimately a crystal clear image on a trail camera

Not enough morning coffee on my part!

 

I editted the original post. Indeed not all the offspring would be sterile but there would be an increasing number.

 

To me, at least, the increasing sightings would point towards a pattern of puposely releasing them, as opposed to wild hybrids breeding.

I can honestly assure you there are no big cats being released. There are incredibly strict recording procedures for ownership both by zoos and private individuals and these data bases are accessed centrally by any interested officials. There are fines etc for wrong recording or deliberate release and accidental escapes are very rare. Escapees which are not recaptured or shot are almost unheard of and there is a very real possibility of a zoo losing its licence if escapes occur or are not dealt with properly.

Personally I think more reports can be put down to several factors. Possibly more wild cats breeding. Possibly cats getting more used to humans. Probably more people using the countryside for leisure purposes. More reports leads to more wishful thinking too!

[ChrisJones 7,973]

I can honestly assure you there are no big cats being released. There are incredibly strict recording procedures for ownership both by zoos and private individuals and these data bases are accessed centrally by any interested officials. There are fines etc for wrong recording or deliberate release and accidental escapes are very rare. Escapees which are not recaptured or shot are almost unheard of and there is a very real possibility of a zoo losing its licence if escapes occur or are not dealt with properly.

Good points, thanks for that!

 

That scratches part of my equation. Is it possible that there could be illegal collections that circumvent the law? Over here a lot of states have strict rules on what can and can't be kept. A couple of years ago someone caught Pacu in a local pond! Different species, I know, but looking at what collectors will pay versus what inexperienced hobbyists have done to areas of environmental sensitivity, is not likely, possible, probable?

 

Personally I think more reports can be put down to several factors. Possibly more wild cats breeding. Possibly cats getting more used to humans. Probably more people using the countryside for leisure purposes. More reports leads to more wishful thinking too!

What would you hypothesize for the general lack of mainstream evidence overall?

Edited June 27, 2017 by ChrisJones

[Greyman 25,157]

 

I can honestly assure you there are no big cats being released. There are incredibly strict recording procedures for ownership both by zoos and private individuals and these data bases are accessed centrally by any interested officials. There are fines etc for wrong recording or deliberate release and accidental escapes are very rare. Escapees which are not recaptured or shot are almost unheard of and there is a very real possibility of a zoo losing its licence if escapes occur or are not dealt with properly.

 

Good points, thanks for that!

 

That scratches part of my equation. Is it possible that there could be illegal collections that circumvent the law? Over here a lot of states have strict rules on what can and can't be kept. A couple of years ago someone caught Pacu in a local pond! Different species, I know, but looking at what collectors will pay versus what inexperienced hobbyists have done to areas of environmental sensitivity, is not likely, possible, probable?

 

Personally I think more reports can be put down to several factors. Possibly more wild cats breeding. Possibly cats getting more used to humans. Probably more people using the countryside for leisure purposes. More reports leads to more wishful thinking too!

 

What would you hypothesize for the general lack of mainstream evidence overall?

I think rat attack,s account gives you part of the reason they are so aware of us, his sighting was twenty minutes ahead of the hounds and most sightings are fleeting so even if you have a camera by the time your brain digests what your eyes are telling it, it's gone again, trail camera,s are pretty new over here but there are a few reasonable shots appearing and as more people use them I think the evidence will grow same with thermal image,dash cams and drones

[ChrisJones 7,973]

I think rat attack,s account gives you part of the reason they are so aware of us, his sighting was twenty minutes ahead of the hounds and most sightings are fleeting so even if you have a camera by the time your brain digests what your eyes are telling it, it's gone again, trail camera,s are pretty new over here but there are a few reasonable shots appearing and as more people use them I think the evidence will grow same with thermal image,dash cams and drones

I see evidence of them all the time, and have yet to see one in the flesh. The rangers I've bumped into, a few of those have never seen one despite decades on the job. I understand how elusive they are from a sighting point of view, and that's in cat country where their existence isn't disputed.

 

I'm just looking at previous threads on this subject, and the general pisstaking that they attract. I wonder what it would take to convince the skeptic, bearing in mind that in the UK you'd be on an uphill struggle with information.