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jimmy8

Lead Training

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you forgot mushroom :laugh:

 

I wasn't 100% sure if he was joking or not lol

 

I know people who do some very rough things with their dogs, conditioning works both ways, what they call negative reinforcement clearly works look at Caesar Millan but for a novice you are going to run in to massive problems with scruffing, e-collars etc.

 

I was told to do things by 'professionals' and all I did was f**k my dog up because I was clueless. I once sent this Lab to a professional gundog trainer, after 5 weeks I get a phone call telling me that my dog is untrainable and to pick him up as it's a waste of money ha ha when I got him home he couldn't even walk to heal. I don't blame the guy, my dog had already been conditioned to behave a certain way which is why getting the puppy training is so vital.

 

I sound like I think I'm an expert which I'm not, I am however an expert in knowing what not to do :laugh:

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you forgot mushroom :laugh:

I wasn't 100% sure if he was joking or not lol

 

Mushroom is always 100% serious when he gives dog training advice and you'd be a fool not to listen to it, the man is a genius :yes:

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Not with ya on the puppy training Nik any dog can be completely social without training at an early age , it's about management not discipline and confrontation

The tide will turn on all that socialisation bollox as well , once it's grounded onto its owner it can take the world in its stride, this shite about needing to see everything before a certain date in its timeline , crap ,

Never socialised a dog forty years ago , nobody did , was there as many in shelters was there as many attacks on people /dogs , there was nothing

 

Dog has hard wired behaviours , if those behaviours are fulfilled the dog is fulfilled , it never needs to see another dog or person to be 100% chilled with the world

Once the f****n dog tunes into you and he will if you create the right environent , he will train himself through daily interaction with its owner

 

No f****r is going to tell you every dog is born social, no one , because they all want you to buy a product , service , book , classes whatever , that seemly breaks the dog down into a social being

The dog is only telling the truth of every owners wisdom, if we stop projecting thoughts into the dogs head and understand that the dog goes by how it feels in any given moment then we're getting nearer the truth of canine behaviour because a dog ain't thinking bugger all

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Not with ya on the puppy training Nik any dog can be completely social without training at an early age , it's about management not discipline and confrontation

The tide will turn on all that socialisation bollox as well , once it's grounded onto its owner it can take the world in its stride, this shite about needing to see everything before a certain date in its timeline , crap ,

Never socialised a dog forty years ago , nobody did , was there as many in shelters was there as many attacks on people /dogs , there was nothing

 

Dog has hard wired behaviours , if those behaviours are fulfilled the dog is fulfilled , it never needs to see another dog or person to be 100% chilled with the world

Once the f****n dog tunes into you and he will if you create the right environent , he will train himself through daily interaction with its owner

 

No f****r is going to tell you every dog is born social, no one , because they all want you to buy a product , service , book , classes whatever , that seemly breaks the dog down into a social being

The dog is only telling the truth of every owners wisdom, if we stop projecting thoughts into the dogs head and understand that the dog goes by how it feels in any given moment then we're getting nearer the truth of canine behaviour because a dog ain't thinking bugger all

spot on, you put it better than i ever could :thumbs: alot of people treat dogs like humans , and not a dog. regular i meet people with there dogs , and straight away you can see fear in faces when ive got my dog Buck loose , they either pick there little dogs up, or if bigger type dogs , they put them on the lead and hold them close . ive told them/people must be 100 times my dog soft and wouldn't hurt them or their dog . But what ive learned with these people , its not so much there worried or fear for there dogs, its (them) who are really scared of my dog , the fear from them, not because they got a dog , they could be walking lizard etc lol . if they weren't so scared of Buck and let all the dogs interact like most dogs do , and they see in 20 secs that Buck big soft thing, and very sociable friendly dog , him and Bryn are like this because i let them mix at very young age from 10 weeks old ive had them playing with all type of dog big and small, and there was never any prob because everybody was at ease with the other dogs and the owners showed no fear to the other dogs. fact what you said right in other words let them just be dogs , and behave like a dog . :yes:

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Not with ya on the puppy training Nik any dog can be completely social without training at an early age , it's about management not discipline and confrontation

The tide will turn on all that socialisation bollox as well , once it's grounded onto its owner it can take the world in its stride, this shite about needing to see everything before a certain date in its timeline , crap ,

Never socialised a dog forty years ago , nobody did , was there as many in shelters was there as many attacks on people /dogs , there was nothing

 

Dog has hard wired behaviours , if those behaviours are fulfilled the dog is fulfilled , it never needs to see another dog or person to be 100% chilled with the world

Once the f****n dog tunes into you and he will if you create the right environent , he will train himself through daily interaction with its owner

 

No f****r is going to tell you every dog is born social, no one , because they all want you to buy a product , service , book , classes whatever , that seemly breaks the dog down into a social being

The dog is only telling the truth of every owners wisdom, if we stop projecting thoughts into the dogs head and understand that the dog goes by how it feels in any given moment then we're getting nearer the truth of canine behaviour because a dog ain't thinking bugger all

 

Hi Casso Can you please clarify what you mean about what I have said please?

 

With 'socialisation' I mean I don't agree with letting my dogs socialise with other dogs I don't know or at very least not without my close supervision is a situation where I don't know the owner and don't know the dog. I have had to deal with too many problems which has often resulting in my Lab being attacked and I don't see the benefit of having other dogs I don't know run up to mine. I am happy to let the pup play with another dog once I can gauge the other dog a little, I can predict a bad encounter with the Lab because I know him and I have been through it a million times however I am fairly sure the cocker could be allowed to run free and wouldn't get in to trouble with most dogs because she is submissive.....somewhere along the way my lab has become very warey of certain types of other dogs, I think it is the other dogs that are detecting this warey behaviour and an altercation ensures. Having said that we aimed with this pup was that she saw us as far more fun than anything else so that I can keep her attention in a situation where she might want to run off to play and switch of from us.

 

I don't think I said I needed to interfere with socialisation or train it, when the pup met the lab I left them to it, I knew she would overstep the mark, he would correct her behaviour (she tried to take something from him) he growled and put her in her place and it all went swimmingly from there....pretty sure this would happen in most normal dog situations without human interference but the problem is there are a lot of unstable dogs out there due to their owners so I am very warey.

 

Anyway if you could take the time to specify what you were talking about I would really appreciate it, I enjoy learning and adding to my limited knowledge because I agree with everything you wrote in your post!

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I think there seems to be a bit of confusion about socialisation, and what it really means. To some people, socialisation means getting your pup out and about and letting it come into contact with everything and everyone with not much intervention from the owner. To others, who have learned how puppies process their experiences and what negative experiences can do to a dog, socialisation is a much more controlled and positive process.

I am fortunate that I live in an area where there seem to be an increasing number of people with dogs who actually understand this. Yesterday I met a 4 month old Collie pup, a delightful little thing. Her owner actually asked if my dogs would be OK to meet her. I said yes, though put bossy dog on the lead: she is apt to stand over other dogs exuding control: you can practically see her mind waves beaming out and attempting to cow other dogs. I allowed one of my lurchers to go and meet the pup, who did all the right things: kept still, initially, lay down to be investigated by the adult dog, and then bounced around wagging and licking, all of which was tolerated by the adult with the canine equivalent of a smile. 'Bossy' dog was kept away by the lead.

This type of controlled socialisation is essential for a pup: it learns how to greet and interact with adult dogs. To say that we don't need to socialise dogs is, I think, a misleading statement, all respect to Casso who I've also learned a lot from. Yes, it is important that our dogs trust us implicitly: you know you're getting it right if your dog comes running to you when in doubt as to what to do, or for protection.

 

How we rear pups does depend, to a large extent, on their individual temperaments and how they react to the world, and also where we live. Some pups need a lot more confidence building in the skills which enable them to live comfortably in the world. Whilst any pup can be damaged by forced socialisation and a negative experience, some are more fragile than others. Too much throwing in at the deep end by owners who think that they just have to accept what happens to their pups as part of the growing up process is not the way to do things.

I monitor each pup, each situation, and react accordingly: if I see my small puppy is worried by an approaching stranger/dog I either pick it up or move quietly to one side of the path and stand with the pup between my feet, ready to fend off the too inquisitive strange dog. The pup learns I am there to protect it. I also stop a pup going to meet any dog or person I don't know. I would never, ever take a puppy to socialisation classes purely because I know that there will be pups of differing ages there, different breeds, and not all behave in the same way: behaviour in dogs is greatly influenced by breed and type. A reactive, sensitive lurcher pup will not be happy to be bowled over and over by a thug of a Staffy or Lab pup which is several weeks older. Too many so-called socialisation classes are, or used to be, a free-for-all where puppies rampaged off lead. This may have changed. I prefer to keep control of their contacts myself.

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I think there seems to be a bit of confusion about socialisation, and what it really means. To some people, socialisation means getting your pup out and about and letting it come into contact with everything and everyone with not much intervention from the owner. To others, who have learned how puppies process their experiences and what negative experiences can do to a dog, socialisation is a much more controlled and positive process.

I am fortunate that I live in an area where there seem to be an increasing number of people with dogs who actually understand this. Yesterday I met a 4 month old Collie pup, a delightful little thing. Her owner actually asked if my dogs would be OK to meet her. I said yes, though put bossy dog on the lead: she is apt to stand over other dogs exuding control: you can practically see her mind waves beaming out and attempting to cow other dogs. I allowed one of my lurchers to go and meet the pup, who did all the right things: kept still, initially, lay down to be investigated by the adult dog, and then bounced around wagging and licking, all of which was tolerated by the adult with the canine equivalent of a smile. 'Bossy' dog was kept away by the lead.

This type of controlled socialisation is essential for a pup: it learns how to greet and interact with adult dogs. To say that we don't need to socialise dogs is, I think, a misleading statement, all respect to Casso who I've also learned a lot from. Yes, it is important that our dogs trust us implicitly: you know you're getting it right if your dog comes running to you when in doubt as to what to do, or for protection.

 

How we rear pups does depend, to a large extent, on their individual temperaments and how they react to the world, and also where we live. Some pups need a lot more confidence building in the skills which enable them to live comfortably in the world. Whilst any pup can be damaged by forced socialisation and a negative experience, some are more fragile than others. Too much throwing in at the deep end by owners who think that they just have to accept what happens to their pups as part of the growing up process is not the way to do things.

I monitor each pup, each situation, and react accordingly: if I see my small puppy is worried by an approaching stranger/dog I either pick it up or move quietly to one side of the path and stand with the pup between my feet, ready to fend off the too inquisitive strange dog. The pup learns I am there to protect it. I also stop a pup going to meet any dog or person I don't know. I would never, ever take a puppy to socialisation classes purely because I know that there will be pups of differing ages there, different breeds, and not all behave in the same way: behaviour in dogs is greatly influenced by breed and type. A reactive, sensitive lurcher pup will not be happy to be bowled over and over by a thug of a Staffy or Lab pup which is several weeks older. Too many so-called socialisation classes are, or used to be, a free-for-all where puppies rampaged off lead. This may have changed. I prefer to keep control of their contacts myself.

 

 

That all sounds bang on and the exact opposite of what I did so thats how I know its bang on lol.

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I would think the modern understood new puppy upbringing method is socialisation , everyone is at it, it the cure all , perfect puppy out on the lead getting used to the world , fine

 

But we need to look at how a pup processes the world , his world is divided and every action is based on a predator /prey mindset , that's all he can go on

 

So when we bring a young pup out into the big world we are leaving a physical history of what it felt like as a pup to encounter whatever comes it's way protected or not , stimulated over and over is not what I want

 

What I want is calm relaxed upbringing , so when I take the mutt for a walk as an adult , he not putting in a gum shield in expectation of the stimulation that he already feels standing at the door,

 

Take pups out on their own to quiet out of the way places , the places your meant to be hunting in , why the hell would you take it into a f***ing city , let it grow mentally without having all that excess emotional baggage to deal with as a adult

 

Shelters are full to the gills of socialised mutts Full , let's start look at the figures which is reality not fairytale , socialising is a human concept not a canine one to sell a book or whatever

Edited by Casso

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What I want is calm relaxed upbringing , so when I take the mutt for a walk as an adult , he not putting in a gum shield in expectation of the stimulation that he already feels standing at the door,

 

Take pups out on their own to quiet out of the way places , the places your meant to be hunting in , where the hell would you take it , into a f***ing city , let it grow mentally without having all that excess emotional baggage to deal with as a adult

 

I don't think I made any posts about socialisation so we might have crossed wires? what you are describe is exactly what we're aiming to do, many of my Labs problems were a result of 'socialisation' and living in a city where he really was putting his gumshields in before every walk so we're not making that mistake again and partly why we now like in a rural location.

 

I avoid places where there are a lot of dog owners because I fail to see what good can come of throwing my dog in to the ring with other dogs that we don't know. We go to very quiet places and spend all our time having the dog focused on us and letting her have a hunt or play, we are being calm and very relaxed and not really trying to train her seriously at this stage as I think she is still too young.

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Its just thrown out there, not for yourself in particular bud

 

Some folks can't see the canine world because they spend to long projecting human thoughts into the mutt."if I do this you must do that "

Meanwhile dog is going by how something and it FEELS , and in the wolf cub world , that gut feeling help him navigate his environment If we brought him into a city he'd have a meltdown because of stimulation overload the same stimulation any pup is subject too the only difference is a pup can hold on to a feeling before it breaks into instinct but the more you trigger instinct The more instinct is likely to be triggered in the future.

 

And a dog functioning on instinct is a dog on the edge Flight or flight And social comes way down the list of priority s

 

A dog processes the present by feeling how it felt in that same environment in the past , a field a dog caught a bunny in is relived , a scare in an area is re-felt , the next dog in a pups face is relived as the first angry fecker that got up in its face and the response will depend on temperament , some adult dogs will be waggy tails all their life and some will be exploders

Edited by Casso
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If the physical memory in the dog is hard to grasp , think more along the lines of trauma victims who relive a hugely traumatic event again in real time because what your acually recalling is the feeling had , the feeling actually invests itself in the body and whatever goes in must come out and that then is an outburst, human or canine

Edited by Casso
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