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#31 David Aiken

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 10:10 am

 

 

 

DONT  leave your guns or ammo in your car i left a few rounds in my Truck had my Truck broken into and bullets went, today the Police have taken all my guns it dosen't pay to be honest

 

Unfortunately you don't have a leg top stand on because the law states that when your guns/ammo are not in use they MUST be secured in your cabinet. I really do appreciate that you had just left a few rounds in the car, but that's all they need to screw you. 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I honestly wouldn't have said anything about the stolen ammo if it had been me. The trouble is you were honest with them and as the saying goes "No good deed goes unpunished".

I really do hope your shooting organisation can get your guns back for you though, as it does seem very harsh that you should be a victim of both a scum-bag and the police.

In the late 90s I took my car in for a service and when I went to pick it up they had placed my shotgun cartridge belt, with 25 cartridges in it, on the front seat. I had forgotten that I had left it in the boot. As the law is different for shotgun shells it probably wouldn't have made any difference had they called the police. As it was they didn't even mention it, but it just shows how easy it is to slip up.  

We are in for a rough time in the future as the powers-that-be look for every way possible to revoke and confiscate.

 

G

 

Really? I was under the impression most gun safety / storage was open to conjecture and differing interpretation and not written in law, just suggestions, as in the home office guide. Also, how can you possibly adhere to this? because the law states that when your guns/ammo are not in use they MUST be secured in your cabinet.   If you are transporting a gun for someone to borrow. you're not using it! 

 

The Home Office Guide says:

 

Transporting Firearms: When firearms are being transported, the certificate holder must take reasonable precautions to make sure that the firearm, ammunition or shotgun is kept safe. If you do not transport firearms and ammunition very often, you should not normally need to have a security device fitted in the vehicle. If your vehicle is left unattended at any time, it is normally safe enough to remove some essential component (where possible) and keep it in your personal possession; for example the bolt from a rifle or the fore-end from a shotgun. Where practicable, firearms and ammunition should be placed where they cannot be seen, eg inside the load carrying area of a locked vehicle. If you frequently transport large quantities of firearms by car and they are often left in circumstances where they may be vulnerable to thieves, you need a higher level of security. You could, for example, keep them in a secured metal container in the boot. A car alarm and immobiliser will provide extra security.

 

Not even asking for a security device, just to be locked and out of sight. Only asking (you could) keep them in a secured metal container in the boot. A car alarm and immobiliser will provide extra security. If you frequently transport large quantities of firearms by car and they are often left in circumstances where they may be vulnerable to thieves

 

So, the ammunition was in a locked vehicle, alarmed out of sight, not regularly transporting large quantities of firearms. Where is the offence?

 

Semantics I'm afraid, because when you are travelling with your guns in the car to or from shooting, OR to sell or lend them, you are in fact using them.

 

If on the other hand you leave the car overnight with guns or ammo in it.......you are NOT using them, you have simply left them in an insecure place whilst YOU are safe in another.

Could argue all night and not agree, so it's not worth it. I just feel bloody sorry for this man for being screwed for being honest, after all if they found the truck but no ammo who would have known.

 

G

 

G

 

 

Really? The law as I know it say a gun must be secured in a property with adequate locks on all entrance doors. There are recommendations regarding gun cabinets / safes. My fully alarmed 4x4 is easily as secure as my gun safe, no one would hear an angle grinder cutting my safe open. 

 

As the BASC says:

 

7. SECURITY

Keep your shotgun secured – for preference in a purpose-built gun cabinet – when not in use. Ensure that no-one else has access to the keys – remember it is your responsibility to ensure that an unauthorised person (which includes anyone who hasn’t got a shotgun certificate) does not have access to your guns. Store your shotgun ammunition separately from your guns. The law does not require you to keep shotgun cartridges secure; however, it is good practice to do so. They are best stored in a cool, dry place where inquisitive children cannot get hold of them.

for preference, not law.

And UK Gun Law www site says:

 

Firearms storage and safe keeping in the home.

    The precise requirements for storage of firearms are not actually specified in law. The legislation merely says that they "must be stored securely at all times so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the guns by unauthorized persons". In practice, a steel cabinet constructed and certified to comply with BS 7558 and Rawlbolted to a solid wall is the norm. The vast majority of commercially available gun and rifle cabinets meet the necessary standards. If your premises have shared access, for example if you live in a block of flats, the requirements may be more stringent. In all cases the requirement to prevent access to the firearms by "unauthorised persons",means anyone who doesn't personally hold a FAC. This means that even members of your family must not have keys to the cabinet or even know where you keep them.



#32 Graham M

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 04:19 pm

Sorry David, and you can argue all you wish. If you leave you rifle in you car all night, because you don't want to load all your gear in the morning, you will have been deemed to have broken your conditions. And no matter how much you may argue the toss the police will come down like the proverbial 2240lbs of bricks.

 

Tell me.............when your FEO came around to check your security, did he have a look at your cabinet .........................or your car????

 

 

G


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#33 David Aiken

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 05:55 pm

Sorry David, and you can argue all you wish. If you leave you rifle in you car all night, because you don't want to load all your gear in the morning, you will have been deemed to have broken your conditions. And no matter how much you may argue the toss the police will come down like the proverbial 2240lbs of bricks.
 
Tell me.............when your FEO came around to check your security, did he have a look at your cabinet .........................or your car????
 
 
G


I agree, I wouldn't leave a single round over night out side of my gun vault. I'm not arguing, just pointing out its not law to have a gun vault as in your post.

#34 delswal

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 06:13 pm

At the end of the day no matter how you two argue over the rules, it was a box of .243 ammo, now if I was to wind the clock back a lot of years and recall some people I knew off, and their activities, the criminal world seemed to be working with sawn of shotguns and pistols. Lets be real here how many incidents have you seen on the news of crimes committed with full length bolt action centre fire rifles? This incident undertaken by the police is a total knee jerk reaction looking for an excuse to remove a legitimate number of guns owned by a responsible person.

 

Did the police actually think to themselves, " hold on a minute this guy has been totally up front and told us the truth regarding the ammunition and who's hands it may have fallen into, any lesser of a man would have lied" 

 

I for one Owen for what it's worth think you will get your guns returned with the aid of a good field sports solicitor, albeit a stern lecture may accompany them.


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#35 nasher1

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 06:59 pm

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Clive Rees should be your first port of call he specializes in stuff like this and will put your mind at rest straight away, atb Roy


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#36 Graham M

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 11:27 pm

At the end of the day no matter how you two argue over the rules, it was a box of .243 ammo, now if I was to wind the clock back a lot of years and recall some people I knew off, and their activities, the criminal world seemed to be working with sawn of shotguns and pistols. Lets be real here how many incidents have you seen on the news of crimes committed with full length bolt action centre fire rifles? This incident undertaken by the police is a total knee jerk reaction looking for an excuse to remove a legitimate number of guns owned by a responsible person.

 

Did the police actually think to themselves, " hold on a minute this guy has been totally up front and told us the truth regarding the ammunition and who's hands it may have fallen into, any lesser of a man would have lied" 

 

I for one Owen for what it's worth think you will get your guns returned with the aid of a good field sports solicitor, albeit a stern lecture may accompany them.

I really hope so as well, because why should an honest man be penalised for his honesty.

As for criminals using fullbore rifles; no way would they want to when a Saturday-Night-special will more than suffice. But that won't stop the anti-shooting brigade.

I watched an episode of the series of "Lewis" in the week, and typical of the media they found a way of showing a gun club in the university. They then showed how the keys for the club and the armoury were kept in a drawer in the porters office so that anyone who wanted to could sneak in, pinch the keys, get hold of one of the rifles (in this case a 10/22) and use it to kill someone at 100yds or so.

The policeman (Lewis) then made the comment about the lack of security saying "No wonder anyone can get hold of one of the guns" (or something along those lines).

 

We, as shooters, have be like Caesar's wife; totally above suspicion, and anything less WILL be used against us.

 

G



#37 Deker

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 11:52 am

 

Sorry to hear that pal, i think it would be first reaction from most forces now a days to take everything first, then consider the options, they want to take them usually, and have the power to do so, but, don't give up, I think you should have some decent ground to stand on, it all comes down to interpretation of the law, and that's what a good brief is all about, been able to put words together that sound right, make the call Owen, get them on the case, my personal view, you don't need a cabinet to be inside the law and be granted an fac, (we all know it's the norm, but not actually the law) so why does the ammo need to be locked in one ? I think 'secure' is the word, and a crucial one in your case, in a locked vehicle, out of sight, alarmed, sounds fairly secure to me.

Yeah we all know it's not a perfect scenario, and hindsight an all that, let's be honest, it must happen a lot people leaving ammo in motors, you was bloody unlucky that night been broken into, don't give in, fight it, I do think you have a case of sorts, and surly a decent firearms team will see sense.

Agreed with the comments, I hope the put as much effort into catching the scum that have done this as they are persecuting you, feel for you and fingers crossed it gets sorted, but strike while the iron is hot, don't let it lie.

Already in hand i think Barrister is being contacted today i believe and im off to Crown Court now to lodge an appeal ..

 

 

Hope it goes well!



#38 artic

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 07:46 am

DONT  leave your guns or ammo in your car i left a few rounds in my Truck had my Truck broken into and bullets went, today the Police have taken all my guns it dosen't pay to be honest


The main problem here is that your vehicle got broken into and the bullets taken.

It what hands? Will they be used? Sold? Adapted? To commit crime? If they weren't left in your vehicle then those bullets, right now would not be in the hands of criminals. Rightly so the Police took your weapons, ammo and I'm sure your certificate too. It's to safe guard you. There's a huge responsibility when you've been granted a license, many fail the application process.

It's not good news for you, and I hope in time your local constabulary will support you and return your belongings. It's not heard of around here, and I only know of one person that had a similar incident to yours. He was never reunited with his guns.

#39 Graham M

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 03:38 pm

A bit harsh Artic, but sadly true. I do hope this man does get his stuff back though, because he is a decant lad, otherwise he wouldn't have been granted a FAC in the first place.

 

Strange isn't it, but I remember when a policeman from the CO19 firearms unit left his taser on the roof of his car and it flew off as he drove away, never to be seen again.

http://www.dailymail...patrol-car.html

 

And what about the army officer who left her pistol hanging up in the loo at the supermarket after she went for a pee.

http://news.bbc.co.u...rts/4352684.stm

 

Those incidents were far worse and a result of pure negligence, unlike this lad who was a victim of crime.

 

G


Edited by Graham M, 17 April 2016 - 03:39 pm.


#40 artic

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 04:14 pm

Graham, hopefully those two individuals were taken off their unit due to irresponsible behaviour, neglect, loosing police and army property. I'm sure they would of been, I'd have the pair sacked really.

Like I've mentioned before, Mr Clumsy really shouldn't of left live ammo in his vehicle, not unless it was separately locked away and only for a short amount of time. Locked in a case and having it ripped off is better than " I had a few rounds kicking about or in the glove box" And definately not left over night, I'm not saying that was the case here.

Well he was honest to the police, that might be his only lifeline, I hope it is.

Edited by artic, 17 April 2016 - 04:17 pm.


#41 air gun ant

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 07:04 am

Have you heard anything more Owen? I'm sure the police won't be rushing things at their end, but how'd you get on with the barrister/appeal?
Hope things work out for you
Atb ant

#42 THE STALKER

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 01:34 pm

I have gone to the Crown Court and put in for an appeal and i have a top Barrister taking the case and that's all i know at the present  it's just a waiting game now.I have had all the bloodhounds out around town with noses eyes and ears to the ground but no word on any of the gear that went missing beginning to think it was an out of Town job as over the last few months car and shed crime is full on in Chard..

I would of thought if it was in house i would have had a wink  or a nod by now..



#43 air gun ant

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 02:15 pm

I have gone to the Crown Court and put in for an appeal and i have a top Barrister taking the case and that's all i know at the present  it's just a waiting game now.I have had all the bloodhounds out around town with noses eyes and ears to the ground but no word on any of the gear that went missing beginning to think it was an out of Town job as over the last few months car and shed crime is full on in Chard..
I would of thought if it was in house i would have had a wink  or a nod by now..

yeah so I suppose it shows that they hadn't targeted you specifically for anything firearm related, more that they happen to brake in to yours with lots of expensive shooting gear in it! By accident almost. They probably only took the rounds as suiveneers! Wankers!
Atb mate

#44 bell

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 08:38 pm

Best of luck mate, I don't know you mate but it seems to me that those who live in glass houses etc.......I'm sure we have ALL strayed off the right path now and again and anyone who reckons they haven't isn't true to himself......
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#45 foxdropper

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 09:12 pm

Any update Owen 




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