Rspca ~ Chastising A Dog

[Lab 10,979]

Any type of negative reinforcement produces an extreme reaction. We learn not to put our fingers in the fire: that's negative reinforcement, but in a good way. If we learn to sit quietly at table as children because we are scared of being smacked, that, IMO, is bad kind of negative reinforcement. Children were regularly beaten at school in the past, and many would say that it never harmed them, merely taught them to respect those in authority, BUT times have changed. Really good teachers know that you can get a much better result by engaging the child's curiosity, but making lessons interesting and fun. That way there is no shutting down. We, as humans, are constantly evolving. Dogs are the same. Each generation of dogs that are trained by using positive reinforcement and by engaging the dog's drive, are easier and more rewarding to train and can learn more.

I find it sad that gun dogs are still trained, far too often, using methods that are really out of date. I don't claim to be the best dog trainer in the world, but to see a very driven and full-on Saluki lurcher calm down and listen and learn purely by using positive reinforcement is more than rewarding. OK, so spaniels are hyper and need managing. I wonder how much calmer they'd be if they weren't constantly being bullied and brow-beaten into obeying. That frantically wagging tail, grovelling posture, over-fast slamming to the ground on command: to me, it all speaks of too much pent-up energy being bottled up through the type of training we see.

I'm not explaining this very well at all, but what I'm trying to say is that even driven dogs can work calmly and confidently if the training is approached in a different way. Someone made the comment that professional gun dog trainers are having to produce results within a short space of time. Therein surely must lie part of the problem. The the poor dog is sold or sent back to its ignorant owner complete with a set of instant responses that have been rammed into it through force. Can't be right IMO.

Yes cause children of today with modern teaching are sooooo more behaved than the kids of years ago that got a clip round the ear...?

I can see you don't condone any form of physical correction in dogs...that's great, that's your choice.

But some dogs do like to push the boundaries and a quick correction like shown in the video is enough to stop it. Consistency of commands is the key. Time and effort also are 100% needed in the training of a dog.

I do not agree with being 'heavy handed' with a pup. When a pup does not know the commands it is wrong to try and hit it into learning.

I think that's different when it comes to a trained dog that is taking the piss....I have no problem with giving any of my dogs a shake or a clip of I think they are doing that.

[devon flighter 421]

out of likes lab so heres one ! what you say about time and effort etc ,times are changing though ! dont you think everyone wants things in general much quicker nower days and no patience to wait .yes they do need correcting at times but ive seen a few dogs ruined with collars in the past

[Lab 10,979]

out of likes lab so heres one ! what you say about time and effort etc ,times are changing though ! dont you think everyone wants things in general much quicker nower days and no patience to wait .yes they do need correcting at times but ive seen a few dogs ruined with collars in the past

Personally mate I see know reason to rush things. I have been very much of the understanding that you must let a pup be a pup. My Grandad was very strict with this and it served him well. He done very little training overall, nothing really in the first year and allowed his dogs (picking up team) to use there noses and brains to find game. They were far from trailing dogs but they could fill the game cart that's for sure. And that's what your paid for on shoot day.

I have followed on with training method and it has done me well. I have put more time in after the year was up but that was my personal choice.

As for e collars I'd never use one.

 

I can't really speak on behalf of someone trying to train a dog for someone else. One it just doesn't make sense trying to 'push' a dog to a standard when all dogs are different. And 2 probably the strangest is getting someone else to train your dog you have no bond with it and if you don't know what your doing or able to see certain things in the way your dog is working then IMO 9/10 the dog would be mediocre at best.

[devon flighter 421]

neither are or have been any of mine close to trialling dogs just plain simple gun dogs or stalking dogs , used to do a job efficiently and effectively,imho the dog, given the chance will let you know when its ready to learn the next lesson ,providing its given the opportunity ! nearly all my dogs bar the terriers had that handler/dog bond where we both knew what was wanted and when, without any shouting or thundering whistles and this is i think, down to what your saying about training a dog yourself and spending unrushed time with them .horses for courses i suppose but im firmly of the opinion that ALL of my time spent working with dogs is way more enjoyable and effective because of the bond .

[skycat 6,172]

 

Any type of negative reinforcement produces an extreme reaction. We learn not to put our fingers in the fire: that's negative reinforcement, but in a good way. If we learn to sit quietly at table as children because we are scared of being smacked, that, IMO, is bad kind of negative reinforcement. Children were regularly beaten at school in the past, and many would say that it never harmed them, merely taught them to respect those in authority, BUT times have changed. Really good teachers know that you can get a much better result by engaging the child's curiosity, but making lessons interesting and fun. That way there is no shutting down. We, as humans, are constantly evolving. Dogs are the same. Each generation of dogs that are trained by using positive reinforcement and by engaging the dog's drive, are easier and more rewarding to train and can learn more.

I find it sad that gun dogs are still trained, far too often, using methods that are really out of date. I don't claim to be the best dog trainer in the world, but to see a very driven and full-on Saluki lurcher calm down and listen and learn purely by using positive reinforcement is more than rewarding. OK, so spaniels are hyper and need managing. I wonder how much calmer they'd be if they weren't constantly being bullied and brow-beaten into obeying. That frantically wagging tail, grovelling posture, over-fast slamming to the ground on command: to me, it all speaks of too much pent-up energy being bottled up through the type of training we see.

I'm not explaining this very well at all, but what I'm trying to say is that even driven dogs can work calmly and confidently if the training is approached in a different way. Someone made the comment that professional gun dog trainers are having to produce results within a short space of time. Therein surely must lie part of the problem. The the poor dog is sold or sent back to its ignorant owner complete with a set of instant responses that have been rammed into it through force. Can't be right IMO.

Yes cause children of today with modern teaching are sooooo more behaved than the kids of years ago that got a clip round the ear...

I can see you don't condone any form of physical correction in dogs...that's great, that's your choice.

But some dogs do like to push the boundaries and a quick correction like shown in the video is enough to stop it. Consistency of commands is the key. Time and effort also are 100% needed in the training of a dog.

I do not agree with being 'heavy handed' with a pup. When a pup does not know the commands it is wrong to try and hit it into learning.

I think that's different when it comes to a trained dog that is taking the piss....I have no problem with giving any of my dogs a shake or a clip of I think they are doing that.

 

I've never shied away from getting physical with dogs that need it, and quite agree that some dogs will push boundaries. It was probably not a good idea to compare dogs with children, though my comments were based on going to two very different types of school myself. The one, a state school, was useless, and this was still in the days when teachers weren't put on trial for giving a naughty kid a slap round the legs or back of the head (yes, I am that old!), and the other, which allowed no corporal punishment at all, but spent time actually talking with children if they failed to follow the rules, consistently turned out well-rounded human beings. I guess you could have called it an 'alternative' kind of school. It was a Steiner school, and very different to the way state schools are run. The teachers at Steiner schools are there because the passionately believe in what they are doing, rather than just trying to do a damn hard job with their hands and mouths tied.

But, going back to the sit and stay: I just can't see the point of punishing a dog because it lacks the confidence to stay away from your feet, which is what that pup was doing. It had got it into its head that the only place it could feel it was doing right, was sitting at his feet. A pup that breaks a sit-stay from a few feet away and comes rushing back to you isn't being naughty, it just hasn't understood the concept, or doesn't have the confidence. So a sit-stay should always be about showing the pup what is needed, taking the time and patience to teach the lesson without force or violence. I stand by that.

[Chicken_man 1,651]

 

 

He smacks the dog on the backside for a sit! Repartition would be better surely?

I wouldn't want the fear factor full stop.

I've seen spaniels screwed down and said same dogs in good hands with time and patience change, with rewards reaped for all.

Cheers

What if the dogs screwed to the ground were like that because they

weren't smacked?.

 

 

I'm no expert or professional dog trainer and I'm not condoning knocking the shit

out of dogs, but I'd reckon the majority of gundogs at the top level have had that and worse.

When I say screwed down,I mean the handler is constantly on it, dominating, chastising etc and dog in

a submissive manner belly on the ground all the time.

Atb

[Chicken_man 1,651]

Skycat, very well explained.

Phill, I know exactly what you mean. Atb

[Graham M 36]

Picks it up by the scruff of the neck and hits it on the back. The dog then cringes with fear.....................................

 

No I don't think there is enough to convict on a cruelty charge..................

 

But I wouldn't have dreamt of doing either of those things to my Lab when he was a pup, and he did everything I asked of him. Any time he wavered or took the piss he was either shouted at or was shaken by his scruff, much as a bitch would do with a errant puppy.

 

I have seen too many dogs that cringe when their owners approach them.. My old lad used to run around wagging his tail.

 

And as for electric collars..........I'd put them on the owners and make them dash around whilst giving orders in Chinese......they would soon pick it up once they had been zapped a few times wouldn't they

 

G

[greenshank1 406]

Watching the video the dog is frightened of him. Dogs don't learn when they are frightened.

 

Everybody has a different approach to training and his style ain't mine.

 

If you have lost your temper and caused the dog to fear you how do you expect it to learn ? and how do you intend to form a working relationship ?

 

I had lurchers that a raised voice was almost too much for them so had to be quiet and gentle when inside I was actually boiling. My current lab is head strong and driven and I have had to build her training to channel her enthusiasm and character and work hard to get a to where we are now with challenging her mentally and making every walk and training session stimulating her hunting instincts. It took years. She would have taken the verbal reprimands and physical discipline no problem but she would I believe only become wilder and more head strong.

I would not want any of my dogs as robots and our relationship to be based on fear. That isn't training it's old fashioned breaking.

Check out David Lisett spaniel training DVD all based on repetitive positive reinforcement that you can tweak to suit your needs.

 

JMHO

[Waz 4,204]

I dont think anyone wants to harshly chastise their hunting partner.

 

The dog in the video was sent to him due to the owner mucking up, if the owner had carried on, what would happen to the dog? Hope he trains thedogs owner also!

This fellas training method might well have saved the dog, we all know the worst case scenario by word of mouth of shit owners, no?

Or by having a good stop command/training the dog could be stopped from an imminent accident no?

[VOON 1,313]

I dont think anyone wants to harshly chastise their hunting partner.

 

The dog in the video was sent to him due to the owner mucking up, if the owner had carried on, what would happen to the dog? Hope he trains thedogs owner also!

This fellas training method might well have saved the dog, we all know the worst case scenario by word of mouth of shit owners, no?

Or by having a good stop command/training the dog could be stopped from an imminent accident no?

He does say in other video's it's a problem dog sent to him and he does train the owners, we're probably not seeing the whole picture but I think the RSPCA being involved and investigating him is a bit over the top, in terms of a response.

[Casso 1,256]

This thread opens up an interesting insight into how folks think dog digest information

 

On one side we have the positive reinforcement model, where if you do as I ask I'll give you a treat , how it works in theory is , a treat which is worth say 50 feel good points is given when the mutt performs a behaviour, fine we all get that ,

 

Where it falls down is that the rabbit ,bird , smell , fox shite , is worth 200 feel good points to the dog and if you have nothing on your person or have no history of engaging the mutt while highly excited to that level , he quickly does the maths and Fucks off

 

On the other side is the pack thinking , where you must do as I say because I said so , theory is I'm the alpha male you're not, you should listen , again fine in controlled situations

 

But when the dog is greatly stimulated he feels predator like he wants to act out his predator instincts , so we try calling him up in that state we're enraged , he can't come to us in that state , in fact by us becoming predator like we are giving the dog an easy option to chase prey ,

prey will Always control the predator , why is a dog more likely to come to you if you crouch down, it's because the dog feels safer we become less imposing and more prey like , the dog is an immediate moment animal , how he feels in the moment will dictate how he acts it's not a thought process ,

 

But in saying that I would be more worried about the positive reinforcement mob , there seems to be a quiet wave of it flowing through the dog world , where a dog should never be corrected and their way is the only way, it'll be worse in a few years you won't be able to post videos like the fat man above for fear of retribution When we start seeing comparisons between kids and dogs we're on the slippery slope

[Flairball 141]

This thread opens up an interesting insight into how folks think dog digest information

On one side we have the positive reinforcement model, where if you do as I ask I'll give you a treat , how it works in theory is , a treat which is worth say 50 feel good points is given when the mutt performs a behaviour, fine we all get that ,

Where it falls down is that the rabbit ,bird , smell , fox shite , is worth 200 feel good points to the dog and if you have nothing on your person or have no history of engaging the mutt while highly excited to that level , he quickly does the maths and Fucks off

On the other side is the pack thinking , where you must do as I say because I said so , theory is I'm the alpha male you're not, you should listen , again fine in controlled situations

But when the dog is greatly stimulated he feels predator like he wants to act out his predator instincts , so we try calling him up in that state we're enraged , he can't come to us in that state , in fact by us becoming predator like we are giving the dog an easy option to chase prey ,

prey will Always control the predator , why is a dog more likely to come to you if you crouch down, it's because the dog feels safer we become less imposing and more prey like , the dog is an immediate moment animal , how he feels in the moment will dictate how he acts it's not a thought process ,

But in saying that I would be more worried about the positive reinforcement mob , there seems to be a quiet wave of it flowing through the dog world , where a dog should never be corrected and their way is the only way, it'll be worse in a few years you won't be able to post videos like the fat man above for fear of retribution When we start seeing comparisons between kids and dogs we're on the slippery slope

Agree. Training needs to be balanced. When a dog makes a mistake it needs to know it made a mistake. Sometimes it means more than shouting no.

 

I didn't see anything overly rough in the handling of the dog in the video. The dog looked a little soft, and appeared to be reacting to pressure. Every dog reacts to pressure differently. This dog seems to lay down. She'll soon learn to turn off the pressure by complying.

 

Incidentally, the turning off the pressure response is one of the more common e-collar theories. The e-collar can be a great tool, or a greatly misused/abused tools. The problems I see with them is that is that people either become dependent on them, or more commonly don't really understand their proper uses.

[Carraghs Gem 1,675]

https://workingshepherds.wordpress.com/2016/03/28/balanced-training-versus-purely-positive-the-great-divide/

 

a very interesting article from the perspective of a working shepherd trainer on balanced training versus purely positive training

[skycat 6,172]

Very good article indeed. It is entirely possible, and commendable, to love your dog, be nice to it, and still treat it as a dog, rather than a furry child or baby. I don't think that anyone who is at all adept at training a dog is denying that there are times when it is necessary to correct a dog physically, BUT it is how the dog reacts to that correction that tells us whether or not that correction is the correct way to treat that particular dog. Example: I've had dog that would ONLY listen and behave properly if corrected in a hands-on manner. Their reaction would be: "OK, I get it, I won't mess about again." At no time would I expect such a dog to throw itself flat on the ground in submission. That, to me, would indicate that I had gone too far and that the dog was merely obeying me because it was scared to do otherwise. Fear is the mind killer, and I certainly don't want a brain-washed, cowed dog as a worker because it simply wouldn't be able to, or dare to, think for itself in situations that demand exactly that free thinking I need in a working lurcher or terrier.

I do know one gun dog trainer who is patience itself. He produces sensible, well-trained dogs that are not a jittery bag of nerves. But the important thing is that he treats each dog as an individual: there is no 'one method fits all' training programme in his kennels.