Rspca ~ Chastising A Dog

[VOON 1,313]

 

Thoughts?

[VOON 1,313]

 

I'm presuming this is one of the video's in question, I don't see a whole lot wrong with it.

[Lab 10,979]

Seen him before....,nothing wrong with that what so ever. Maybe if your everyday Joe public would watch it there might not be so many daft unruly dogs running around the place.

I've no idea why he lets it run about with the lead on through.

[skycat 6,172]

IN this day of over-protection of animals, where the public see any kind of chastisement as cruelty, I can see why carrying the dog by its neck and smacking it on the bum to make it sit could be construed as over harsh. Personally, I have never had to resort to anything like that when teaching a young dog to sit and stay. I wouldn't like to see any of my dogs glue themselves to the ground in total submission for fear of another slap, and I have had some very hard-headed pups to deal with over the years, though not spaniels. Sitting and staying is simply a matter of repetition, and although it might take a little longer if you don't hit the dog to make it fear and obey you, you get there in the end.

I hate to say it, but many gun dog trainers are as much in the dark ages as certain lurcher owners. Many are still in the 'have you beaten your dogs today, gentlemen?' frame of training. I'll be interested to see if there are any enlightened gun dog trainers on here who would agree ... or not ... and if not why not.

[devon flighter 421]

IN this day of over-protection of animals, where the public see any kind of chastisement as cruelty, I can see why carrying the dog by its neck and smacking it on the bum to make it sit could be construed as over harsh. Personally, I have never had to resort to anything like that when teaching a young dog to sit and stay. I wouldn't like to see any of my dogs glue themselves to the ground in total submission for fear of another slap, and I have had some very hard-headed pups to deal with over the years, though not spaniels. Sitting and staying is simply a matter of repetition, and although it might take a little longer if you don't hit the dog to make it fear and obey you, you get there in the end.

I hate to say it, but many gun dog trainers are as much in the dark ages as certain lurcher owners. Many are still in the 'have you beaten your dogs today, gentlemen?' frame of training. I'll be interested to see if there are any enlightened gun dog trainers on here who would agree ... or not ... and if not why not.

i agree 100% skycat,im not a professional gun dog trainer but i have owned and trained my own gun dogs and terriers ,i personally find its best all round if you persevere with building the bond required to get the necessary results rather than using force ! its only my opinion but i feel if force is needed its down to the handler/trainer rather than the dog ,saying that ive got a gwp now and a couple of times ive thought about a collar for him lol, but when i stepped back i could see it wasnt the solution for us and it was me that was lacking !,professional trainers do try to work to time limits though and perhaps dont have the available time to wait ,BUT THATS A WHOLE NEW DISCUSSION THOUGH!

[Casso 1,256]

Another thing that's I feel is happening in the dog world especially at top competive level is trainers are breeding highly driven dogs many of which are trained in part through ecollars

 

I don't have a huge problem with that as such but when joe soap buys a pup out of trail winning dogs trained with the use of collars , many of the pups can prove to be a real handful seemly more driven and less social in interacting with the average handler

A lot of folk look for top level pups and rightly so but many of these pups can prove to be almost terrier like in their working intensity with the social element in their behavior greatly diminished

[Chicken_man 1,651]

Are they training these dogs with the ecollars because they haven't got the patients/time to train one properly? And maybe to get the job done quicker so they can fire out more pups and trained dogs for big money?

That's probably more like it imo!

Atb

That dog is scared, it ain't responding for love or a good bond, it's belly is on the ground.

Atb

[Casso 1,256]

Are they training these dogs with the ecollars because they haven't got the patients/time to train one properly? And maybe to get the job done quicker so they can fire out more pups and trained dogs for big money?

That's probably more like it imo!

 

Atb

You make a good point there but an advantage the collar has over hands on correction is the the dog doesn't lay blame for the correction at the hands of the trainer , you won't have the fear in the dog of the approach of the handler or indeed its approaching into the handlers space

[Chicken_man 1,651]

He smacks the dog on the backside for a sit! Repartition would be better surely?

I wouldn't want the fear factor full stop.

I've seen spaniels screwed down and said same dogs in good hands with time and patience change, with rewards reaped for all.

Cheers

[mackay 3,049]

He smacks the dog on the backside for a sit! Repartition would be better surely?

I wouldn't want the fear factor full stop.

I've seen spaniels screwed down and said same dogs in good hands with time and patience change, with rewards reaped for all.

Cheers

What if the dogs screwed to the ground were like that because they weren't smacked?.

I'm no expert or professional dog trainer and I'm not condoning knocking the shit out of dogs, but I'd reckon the majority of gundogs at the top level have had that and worse.

[skycat 6,172]

Any type of negative reinforcement produces an extreme reaction. We learn not to put our fingers in the fire: that's negative reinforcement, but in a good way. If we learn to sit quietly at table as children because we are scared of being smacked, that, IMO, is bad kind of negative reinforcement. Children were regularly beaten at school in the past, and many would say that it never harmed them, merely taught them to respect those in authority, BUT times have changed. Really good teachers know that you can get a much better result by engaging the child's curiosity, but making lessons interesting and fun. That way there is no shutting down. We, as humans, are constantly evolving. Dogs are the same. Each generation of dogs that are trained by using positive reinforcement and by engaging the dog's drive, are easier and more rewarding to train and can learn more.

I find it sad that gun dogs are still trained, far too often, using methods that are really out of date. I don't claim to be the best dog trainer in the world, but to see a very driven and full-on Saluki lurcher calm down and listen and learn purely by using positive reinforcement is more than rewarding. OK, so spaniels are hyper and need managing. I wonder how much calmer they'd be if they weren't constantly being bullied and brow-beaten into obeying. That frantically wagging tail, grovelling posture, over-fast slamming to the ground on command: to me, it all speaks of too much pent-up energy being bottled up through the type of training we see.

I'm not explaining this very well at all, but what I'm trying to say is that even driven dogs can work calmly and confidently if the training is approached in a different way. Someone made the comment that professional gun dog trainers are having to produce results within a short space of time. Therein surely must lie part of the problem. The the poor dog is sold or sent back to its ignorant owner complete with a set of instant responses that have been rammed into it through force. Can't be right IMO.

[Phil Lloyd 10,736]

Some individual dogs,...need to have a straightener,...or they will cause major problems,..and even get themselves killed... Back in the day...I used to be a hard fecker with a dog,...but, over the years I have become more enlightened and now realise where I went wrong...Today,..I only keep/breed dogs that are of the temperament, to take schooling and also handle the occasional row....

Personaly,..I hate bad feeling twixt me and the dogs,..I like us all to be at the game for the same reason...It is possibly a wee bit anthropomorphic, to consider a canine as being a good old pal, a trusted friend, etc,..in the manner of a human hunting partner,..but I do

Edited April 5, 2016 by Phil Lloyd

[hily 379]

as joe Irvin wrote when the spaniel does wrong and tries your patience find a bush with a good twichey stick cut it down clean the branches off it and by that time you will have calmed down and your temper will be back on an even keel (or words to that effect).But the situation in the video seams to me as a controlled effort to educate the pup not someone beating the crap out of a dog to make it do what the trainer wants I do think when the pup/dog goes wrong you have to intervene a.s.p. while the command is fresh in the dogs head other wise the pup wont know why its been pulled up. praise goes a long way but some pups get to the teenage rebellion stage and really try it on soft dogs can be pulled up with a growl and some need a firm hand only my opinion as always

[devon flighter 421]

Are they training these dogs with the ecollars because they haven't got the patients/time to train one properly? And maybe to get the job done quicker so they can fire out more pups and trained dogs for big money?

That's probably more like it imo!

Atb

That dog is scared, it ain't responding for love or a good bond, it's belly is on the ground.

Atb

or the experience !!!!! greed again though

[devon flighter 421]

Any type of negative reinforcement produces an extreme reaction. We learn not to put our fingers in the fire: that's negative reinforcement, but in a good way. If we learn to sit quietly at table as children because we are scared of being smacked, that, IMO, is bad kind of negative reinforcement. Children were regularly beaten at school in the past, and many would say that it never harmed them, merely taught them to respect those in authority, BUT times have changed. Really good teachers know that you can get a much better result by engaging the child's curiosity, but making lessons interesting and fun. That way there is no shutting down. We, as humans, are constantly evolving. Dogs are the same. Each generation of dogs that are trained by using positive reinforcement and by engaging the dog's drive, are easier and more rewarding to train and can learn more.

I find it sad that gun dogs are still trained, far too often, using methods that are really out of date. I don't claim to be the best dog trainer in the world, but to see a very driven and full-on Saluki lurcher calm down and listen and learn purely by using positive reinforcement is more than rewarding. OK, so spaniels are hyper and need managing. I wonder how much calmer they'd be if they weren't constantly being bullied and brow-beaten into obeying. That frantically wagging tail, grovelling posture, over-fast slamming to the ground on command: to me, it all speaks of too much pent-up energy being bottled up through the type of training we see.

I'm not explaining this very well at all, but what I'm trying to say is that even driven dogs can work calmly and confidently if the training is approached in a different way. Someone made the comment that professional gun dog trainers are having to produce results within a short space of time. Therein surely must lie part of the problem. The the poor dog is sold or sent back to its ignorant owner complete with a set of instant responses that have been rammed into it through force. Can't be right IMO.

your explaining it well enough for me skycat "mind my mastery of the english language leaves something to be desired at times "