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22 Wmr?


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#31 paulus

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 05:07 pm

The cut and dry solution would be for them to put the right calibre on the certificate in the first place :yes:

 

But where Firearms licensing is concerned, the Law's an Ass.

when my fac was first issued it too came back as 22rf and also 22cf i rang to clarify and was told any weapon that filled each calibre was acceptable as the land was cleared for those calibres, this was years ago so it seems nothing has changed  :laugh:



#32 The Seeker

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 05:13 pm

I am glad you said that Dan, because this is a complete contradiction of what my pal was told when he got bsome land passed for rimfire, at the time he had a .22lr and a .17hmr the feo passed the land for .22, my pal asked if he could use his hmr they said no at first, then after a bit of a discussion, he (the feo) said he would re classify the land, and ALSO pass it for hmr, he is a well known member on here so will back my story up as true if need be, this shows again how different forces apply the rules as they see fit, so what MAY be accepted in one area MAY not be accepted in another, tread carefully gentelmen.


Yep that's correct I can state 100% if land in S Yorks is passed for .22 rf it most certainly isn't automatically passed for .17HMR. The FAO said the land would need to be reclassified for HMR which it eventually was.
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#33 Rimfireboy!

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 06:23 pm

I thought .22 rimfire was .22 rimfire regardless of case length. I've have never had any problems purchasing .22 short or .22 long rimfire rounds even though I haven't got a rifle chambered specifically for those rounds. They're all .22 rimfire.

#34 Deker

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 07:53 pm

Ok let me put it another way, lets say the op has ground passed for a .22 rimfire (hypothetically of course) are you saying that his ground is also passed for .22 rimfire magnum? or potentially the new .22 wsm when it arrives? it is certainly the case that ground passed for .22 is not automatically passed for .17 rimfire, so would he not be in contravention if he bought a magnum and used it on ground passed only for the .22 lr? I totally see where you are coming from Deker really I do, and I accept 100% that the mistake would be on the part of the police, however I am trying to stop the op and anyone else for that matter causing themselves a load of grief, irrespective of who has made the mistake, this is a grey area, and could open a can of worms in future.


If the ground is passed for .22 RIMFIRE then it is passed for .22WMR because that is a .22 Rimfire. If the ground is passed for .22LR then it is passed for .22lr, and .22lr is not .22WMR.  .22RF is not a .17 in any way, confirmation would need to be secured for any .17 use of land cleared for .22RF.

 

Lets not start second guessing any other calibre we don't have yet, and I'm not aware of a .22WSM, is that yet another, we haven't even got the 17WSM yet!

I hear what you are saying and I think it likely the region meant LR, the fact is they didn't say that, they said .22 RF, that includes WMR.

 

Shocking and appalling wording on the part of the region if that is what they meant!

 

ATB! :thumbs:



#35 Deker

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:07 pm

............................

The second seemed confident and knowledgeable, but still couldn't provide me with a definitive answer. The closest we managed to get was to establish that     if I went out and bought a WMR, there could be no legal repercussions, as my ticket clearly states that I can own a .22 rimfire rifle, which is the category that the .22wmr falls under.    Why isn't that definitive, he has confirmed a WMR is a .22RF!?

..................
After all, there are really no practical reasons for me wanting a wmr over an lr, just a matter of personal preference, and Im sure I'll enjoy the lr just as much.

 

There may be no practical reason for you wanting a WMR, but with all due respect I don't look at the two as a personal preference, at 320ft lb and V-Max availability the WMR is a lot more gun and a very different animal in many ways to a .22lr.    I run .22lr, HMR and WMR, (and a collection of air rifles, centrefires and shotguns) nothing about that is personal preference, they do different jobs for me!  ATB! :thumbs:

.........................



#36 walshie

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:13 pm

I have 22RF stated on my ticket. As it happens I have 22lr rifles, but I asked my RFD in the past and he said he would happily sell me a WMR rifle or ammo if required.



#37 Deker

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:15 pm

I thought .22 rimfire was .22 rimfire regardless of case length. I've have never had any problems purchasing .22 short or .22 long rimfire rounds even though I haven't got a rifle chambered specifically for those rounds. They're all .22 rimfire.


It is, Rimfire is a generic term for a group of cartridges and calibres, to say .22Rimfire simply excludes all other calibre rimfires, there is a large group of .22 Rimfires and it has no bearing on any case size!

http://en.wikipedia....fire_ammunition

 

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#38 Deker

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:29 pm

I think it true to say we may all get sloppy with our terminology at times, and the trusty .22lr is commonly refered to by many (me as well at times) as a my .22 Rimmy.
 
Sloppy indeed, especially for me as I run a .22WMR as well.
 
The fact is the Firearms regions are paid to do a job and do it properly, sloppy language/descriptions on a FAC is appalling and intolerable, if they write .22RF on a FAC that is what it means, if they meant .22LR that is what they should have written.
 
No ambiguity, no second guessing, no mindreading.
 
 .22RF includes this lot and more!
Attached File  .22Rimfire.jpg   6.28KB   0 downloads

 

 

ATB! :thumbs:



#39 Alsone

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 11:15 pm

 

Although I agree with Deker, technically it appears they may have granted you any .22 rimfire through loose / incorrect wording, if it wasn't intended, you risk getting the FEO off side if you act on it. Help me out here, what do you mean .....technically ....loose/incorrect......if...   they are a Firearms Region, they do this all day every day, they have years of experience and know exactly what LR and RF mean, they issued him a FAC listing RF, would you like me to go in and explain the difference to them or do you think just maybe they know?
 
I'd also take advice from a shooting organisation if following that route just to be 100% sure you're legal.  Tell me what isn't 100% Legal about a .22WMR being a .22RF and at the same time tell me why a .22lr is a legal .22RF!  A RFD is a MUCH better judge of the legalities over the BASC, he will sell it to him (or not) his job/future and potentially liberty is on the line, he has much more to lose than any shooting organisation!
 

Personally, if you intend to approach the FEO for clarification, I'd email your question so you have a reply in writing - not strictly necessary, but said it before, belt and braces. It never hurts to use caution. Obviously keep a print out of the reply!
 
That said, your dept. might not be responsive in writing and it could result in a delayed response which may impact on the length of time before you can buy a gun as you may have to chase them. Depends on how desperate you are to get one.

 

 

I think it's possible they maybe just made a mistake with the wording (of course they may have intended it).

 

However, I agree with you Deker, if they've authorised .22 RF then that's technically what you can buy, mistake or not. What you can shoot depends on the land clearance.

 

However, if it wasn't intended, you risk upsetting the FEO.

 

So far as taking independent advice goes, I always believe in a belt and braces approach and it takes the liability away from me if any advice given turns out to be wrong, as the poster was advised to take independent advice from an expert in this field. Just covering my back. :)


Edited by Alsone, 02 May 2014 - 11:16 pm.


#40 maktayla

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:13 am

I also agree with you Deker

 

For a newbie and maybe for some of us more experienced shooters, terminology on the certificates can be very confusing. There is no consistency within the law, neither do they always follow the Home Office guidance. When I posted firstly to CaptainBanana I stated to him, when I first had my Certificate it stated .22Rifle, not rimfire. That got me a bit confused at first. I knew I had only discussed a rimfire with my FEO. However, not so long ago I applied for a 'One-to-One variation' on my certificate. I took copies of it before posting it off to the firearms dept. Thankfully it didnt take long to come back. It now states .22RF. As you mentioned, it goes to show how inconsistent the terminology can be and how confusing it can get. They could easily send out a leaflet or something with your certificate, explaining what the different terminology means and what your certificate allows you purchase. And, many of us said, If you are only allowed to purchase a LR, then state .22LR not RF. I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I think if CaptainBanana went and purchased either a LR or WMR on his certificate, the Police would have a very difficult time defending themselves with the BASC for example, should some issue arise. After all, they have stated RF (Rimfire).. 



#41 Adrian Prisk

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:38 am

Iam in the devon&cornwall area and my variation as just came back with the wording .22rf.I sure i worded my form as a .22lr and .17hmr.



#42 maktayla

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:45 am

Here is a typical example of a Police force not following Home Office Guidance:

 

Durham police licensing move ‘unlawful’

BASC-Facebook-logo_1358956161025_2.jpgBASC is advising members not to co-operate with a move by Durham Constabulary demanding that shooters provide and pay for a medical report from their GP when applying for shotgun or firearm certificates.

Currently the law only requires applicants to declare any medical conditions on their licensing application forms; under current Home Office guidelines, police may then ask an applicant’s GP for an opinion on his or her fitness to hold a certificate.

BASC says Durham is exceeding its legal authority by requiring applicants to submit medical reports up front – and pay any extra fee the doctor may demand for preparing them. We are advising members not to comply but instead stick to the established legal process when applying for certificates.



#43 maktayla

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:48 am

Hi Adrian

 

It looks like youre OK with the a .22rimfire but if it is the case, you aint got the slot for .17hmr. Give em a ring if you requested it and ask for the reason as to why they have not included the slot.



#44 Born Hunter

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:05 pm

With all this carry on I went and checked my FAC, it also says 22RF..... This aint a mistake, it seems numerous forces are using it.



#45 CaptainBanana

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:25 pm

Evening all, took a trip to Surrey guns this afternoon and had a good chat with Peter, the owner. Very helpful and knowledgeable chap. Turns out that with .22rf on my ticket, he would have no qualms about selling me a WMR. However, after further conversation I decided to go with the LR, better to follow my FAO's recommendation and keep him on side I think, especially in these early days.

 

So I am now the owner of a cz 452-2e in LR. Happy days.

 

Really can't recommend Surrey guns highly enough, aimed mainly at target shooters, but plenty of rifles, shotguns and bits & bobs for hunters too. And Peter couldn't have been more helpful. Definitely worth a visit if you're in the area.




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