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#16 hutchey

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:48 pm

And all for a bit of blue paper!
It shouldn't be applied retrospectively.
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#17 Plummerterrier

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:22 pm

Shot plenty deer in scotland don't have dsc1 don't plan on getting it , just another scam and way to get money
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#18 Philluk

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:58 pm

Hi Stu

Can I ask and I don't want to change the post but it has been mentioned here, the DSC being compulsory in Scotland but in all I've seen on BASC and BdS and DI I've not seen anything about this coming into England. Do you have access to things we don't do you know any other info, i do feel to spend a lump of money and 4 days to learn about something many of us have done for many years is unfair. Also the course covers Scottish legislation something I'm not interested in, my shooting is wide but wide local to me, we don't have CWD sika or mJ, so deer recognision is not important to me. Maybe if you do have influence then a shorter course with limitations is something I would be able to do.

This bit of paper covers a lot but as mentioned doesn't really prove a great deal. I was asked to take part in the badger cull as my experience in and around working terriers for 30 yrs and at one time I had a licence to dig badgers they asked if I had DSC, when I said no they said I couldn't do it, but when I explained that I know badgers they weren't interested without the paper that says I can shoot. So the person you mentioned who has just got his first firearm, doesn't have any land to shoot on, he just pays for days. He is deemed a defra marksman, is this right? Maybe that's why no where near the numbers of badgers was reached.
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#19 Caprelous

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:34 am

Shot plenty deer in scotland don't have dsc1 don't plan on getting it , just another scam and way to get money

The SNH held off on implementing the Wayne act a few years ago on BASCS lobbying and they would revue it again in 2014 if sufficient numbers took up the training

however I am informed that these numbers and uptake in Scotland are exceptionally short of whats required so to act is likely to be enforced.

To put it bluntly in the coming months unless you have DSC1 min the chances of you stalking in Scotland will be zilch. My opinion is and its my opinion not fact that to equate a balance England will follow suite the system is geared up for it. Home Office are sending out advice to Police Forces on handling deer stalking cal.

 

Like it or not qualifications are here to stay.   I should add there is a proviso in the system for those who think they are competent enough to just pay for the exam sit without paying the full whack on the courses.

 

Details of this on DMQ website.



#20 Caprelous

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:55 am

Hi Stu

Can I ask and I don't want to change the post but it has been mentioned here, the DSC being compulsory in Scotland but in all I've seen on BASC and BdS and DI I've not seen anything about this coming into England. Do you have access to things we don't do you know any other info, i do feel to spend a lump of money and 4 days to learn about something many of us have done for many years is unfair. Also the course covers Scottish legislation something I'm not interested in, my shooting is wide but wide local to me, we don't have CWD sika or mJ, so deer recognision is not important to me. Maybe if you do have influence then a shorter course with limitations is something I would be able to do.

This bit of paper covers a lot but as mentioned doesn't really prove a great deal. I was asked to take part in the badger cull as my experience in and around working terriers for 30 yrs and at one time I had a licence to dig badgers they asked if I had DSC, when I said no they said I couldn't do it, but when I explained that I know badgers they weren't interested without the paper that says I can shoot. So the person you mentioned who has just got his first firearm, doesn't have any land to shoot on, he just pays for days. He is deemed a defra marksman, is this right? Maybe that's why no where near the numbers of badgers was reached.

No other than opinions of events expressed opinions of my partner. 

All Forest companies in Scotland are now geared to only allow those on the lease with the higher qualification of DSC2 . Home office guidelines to chief constables and how they are implementing applications indicate that DSC1 or training for it being the accepted format. I am not saying I agree with all this but it is in my opinion going to happen, If you value your stalking and wish to continue I suggest those who have rebelled against the system comply relatively sharpish as well.

regards

Stu



#21 danw

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:48 am

Caprelous how will the new rules affect visitors to scotland in particular foreign stalkers? 


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#22 Born Hunter

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:17 am

Why are the Home Office the slightest bit concerned about stalkers having a qualification in identifyng deer and best practice for dealing with the carcass? Surely all that should concern the authorities is that a firearm owner is safe in his use of that firearm? I suppose a gun that fires bullets intended for a fox is inherently safer than one that fires bullets intended for deer? :blink:

 

If any course should be made mandatory for gun owners it should be a state run gun handling course that everybody has to take regardless of calibre.

 

What exactly is the reasoning behind the proposed changes in Scottish legislation Caprelous? I was always under the belief that the Gov't were only really interested in gun safety and not your ability as a marksman or academic? :hmm:  :thumbs:

 

I'm not against doing DSC1 to get what I want but I'd rather spend many more days learning from an experienced deer manager. Surely all the Home Office should be concerned about is that I'm not unsafe....


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#23 danw

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:45 am

Why are the Home Office the slightest bit concerned about stalkers having a qualification in identifyng deer and best practice for dealing with the carcass? Surely all that should concern the authorities is that a firearm owner is safe in his use of that firearm? I suppose a gun that fires bullets intended for a fox is inherently safer than one that fires bullets intended for deer? :blink:

 

If any course should be made mandatory for gun owners it should be a state run gun handling course that everybody has to take regardless of calibre.

 

What exactly is the reasoning behind the proposed changes in Scottish legislation Caprelous? I was always under the belief that the Gov't were only really interested in gun safety and not your ability as a marksman or academic? :hmm:  :thumbs:

 

I'm not against doing DSC1 to get what I want but I'd rather spend many more days learning from an experienced deer manager. Surely all the Home Office should be concerned about is that I'm not unsafe....

Unfortunately mate the Dsc is now being seen as a means to an end, a quick fix to gain a variation.Personally I believe in the mentor system for all calibers, as you know I have mentored a number of stalkers and take the responsibility of such an undertaking very seriously It takes far more than what the Dsc can teach to get me to sign off a candidate but here is the problem how do you prove the mentor and candidate have actually done the work the system is so open to abuse that it is practically worthless and that is why the Dsc is a popular choice with firearms depts it is proof that you actually undertook some training rather than got a mate to sign you off.


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#24 Born Hunter

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:15 am

You're dead right Dan, but what boggles my mind is that they only consider it necessary for deer legal rifles? Someone that is granted a 243 for fox is considered safe? Someone that is granted a shotgun cert is considered safe? But someone that is granted a 223 for managing Muntjac needs a DSC1 to be safe? :blink:

 

The whole system is deer specific, when all the Home Office should be concerned about is gun handling regardless of the quarry it's intended for. If the Home Office is only concerned with gun handling/safety they should introduce a short handling course that is caliber/firearm specific, not quarry specific.

 

Interestingly my FEO/FLO sung the praises of the DSC scheme but didn't consider it at all necessary, just experience stalking and using full bore rifles in that context. He never mentioned mentoring either....... but not sure how much of a say the FEO/FLO has in the actual licensing decision.

 

Regardless of whether a mentoring condition is applied or DSC1 required, personally I want to learn........ the police might deem me safe to wander about with a full bore rifle in the persuit of deer but that's only the beginning......



#25 danw

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:26 am

 Reading some of the threads on here and seeing the conditions imposed is a real eye opener If you consider europe and how many countries expect a hunting exam/test then since we have some of the most stringent firearms law it will come as no real surprise and probably only a mater of time before it's mandatory for all calibers in the UK



#26 Born Hunter

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:36 am

That makes far more sense to me. The purposes for which the DSC is used by the Home Office imo is ill thought through and leaves big questions in other areas of UK gun licensing.

 

I can't comment on how good the DSC is for teaching people the basics in safe and humane stalking and carcass handling but imo the course should be kept for what it is intended and a shorter more focussed course introduced if they want a mandatory course to asses a gun owner/applicants safety/handling.


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#27 Wullz

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:43 am

Myself and my mate are going to go and sit the test, don't want to, don't like being backed into a corner by anybody, but we are going to have to bite it and go and do it....otherwise we are going to give up the chance of taking on more ground in the future....and risk having our tickets restricted......its coming, up here anyway and there is no avoiding it.....



#28 danw

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:52 am

Personally I found the dsc wasn't in depth enough, the reality was we where been taught the minimum required to "pass" the test I felt the course was over subscribed didn't address individuals previous experience and or weaknesses of knowledge and the marksmanship/safety test was a sham Infact I was asked to leave the firing point and made to feel rather foolish by the RO when I raised concerns that the pupil next to me may have plugged their barrel with snow the RO didn't even want to prove the rifle was clear even when I insisted I did however feel vindicated when it transpired he had :icon_eek: Though no apology was forth coming.


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#29 Caprelous

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:40 pm

Caprelous how will the new rules affect visitors to scotland in particular foreign stalkers? 

As long as your accompanied your OK or have the equivalent quals in that Country its the unaccompanied in this country who haven't got the DSC1 who will feel the tight pinch of SNH legislation.



#30 Caprelous

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:56 pm

Why are the Home Office the slightest bit concerned about stalkers having a qualification in identifyng deer and best practice for dealing with the carcass? Surely all that should concern the authorities is that a firearm owner is safe in his use of that firearm? I suppose a gun that fires bullets intended for a fox is inherently safer than one that fires bullets intended for deer? :blink:

 

If any course should be made mandatory for gun owners it should be a state run gun handling course that everybody has to take regardless of calibre.

 

What exactly is the reasoning behind the proposed changes in Scottish legislation Caprelous? I was always under the belief that the Gov't were only really interested in gun safety and not your ability as a marksman or academic? :hmm:  :thumbs:

 

I'm not against doing DSC1 to get what I want but I'd rather spend many more days learning from an experienced deer manager. Surely all the Home Office should be concerned about is that I'm not unsafe....

A lot of what you say I agree with you but theres a lot more to deerstalking than being safe and pulling a trigger on a deer , thats the easy bit you need to be able to identify possible diseases just as a start inc the symptoms of anthrax ,If you touched a deer with anthrax your own life is at risk as its crosses the animal human barriers exceedingly quickly , I gave that as a example although its never been found in wild deer in this country  YET but you could be the unlucky one that Doers LOL

 

Theres a lot more to it that I could possibly encompass in a reply to a post and its a life times learning curve. I learn something new every time I go out but you need to start somewhere and DSC1 is the basics. (it used to be the Woodland Stalking certificate ) when I started without the food hygiene tag then they altered the goal posts and it became DMQ DSC1 the goal posts are continually moving some say for the better,its more hoops to jump through and I pity the new comer starting at the very bottom.

Legislation is different in Scotland to Ireland and all are different to England so you need to be a Firearms Barrister to be up to date in the differences or you can easy fall into a conflict with the laws. 




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