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Changes To French Gun Laws


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#166 villaman

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:35 pm

To be honest mate, in your situation, you're better off seeking advice locally from a professional.

We're just a bunch of blokes on a british hunting forum - we're not going to be able to give you sound advice on French hunting laws.
....... No offence meant to anyone on here.

From what I've seen in the past from guys hunting in your neck of the woods, Coypu can be hunted.

Good luck mate. I hope you get it sorted and get your kit back :thumbs:

That should read " we're just a bunch of TWATS on a british hunting forum and we know everything you need to know  "   :laugh:  :thumbs:


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#167 Coypu Hunter

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:04 am

wow, my heads in a fuddle. I've a little question for you knowledgeable fellows. I've recently been in department 23, working /fishing/ shooting coypu. however upon a visit from the guard de peche things soon turned pearshaped. to cut a long story short they phoned for firearms department support who  confiscated two of my guns a theoben eliminator and a cz .17hmr with a moderator, they're proposing prosecution for shooting an animal with a gas powered air rifle and hunting game with a "silenced"  rifle. my host wasn't best pleased when told by the officers that coypu are classed as game. do any of you know for sure how I stand? any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. I thought I was doing everything by the book and now possibly face a costly return trip to face a court of law.

 

As stated, we're not lawyers. French Federal law is however pretty clear, unless it has been modified by the local Préfecture -- some areas allow the use of silencers on firearms used to hunt coypu, for example.

 

According to our local ONCFS, all animals except rats and mice are classified as either "huntable" (chassable) or "game" (gibier). Either way, the only animals than can be legally taken with an air rifle and without a hunting licence are rats and mice. Silencers may not be used for hunting. A Permis de Chasse is required for hunting any animal other than rats & mice.

 

Did they actually see you shooting coypu with your rifles?



#168 Coypu Hunter

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:12 am

This animal as we know is classified as a pest specie. Also recent rulings by the French govt have stated that any means possiible can be taken to eradicate this non native specie.

This is not now a Chasse animal and therfore falls outside of the Chasse permit (PDC) .

 

 

Never had a visit. Question what happens if I changed the spring back to below 20 joules., cancelled my Permit de Tir ?
 

 

Do you have a link to the official ruling you mention about coypu now falling outside the Permis de Chasse rules? It's the first I've heard of it, and I'm sure pjg.222man would be very happy to hear about it!

 

As for your springer, I contacted my local firearms dept. when I put a V-Mach kit in my HW97K. It was originally registered as 20+ joules, and is now running at around 18 joules. They said it should stay on ticket, however, since that's how it started out.



#169 pjg.222man

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 02:53 pm

the landowners wife mentioned that i'd shot two coypu.

I admitted it straight away when they asked me because I didn't realise i'd committed a crime.


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#170 mikewh79000

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 04:11 pm

The Nutria/coypu was held to be a pest, see French govt web site, and could be despatched any way.
Difference is the chasse rules are for hunting and to allow the chasse to despatch the Coypu needed an add to their list of quarry.
Any land owner ,private lake owner could and should help to control this pest. The chasse are bound by their rules and vigorously police their rights.
The chasse are not allowed on my land or my lake.
Therefore to control this species with an air rifle, cricket bat or iron bar is up to me.
I carry pest control insurance, written permission from lake owners .
I do not wander aimlessly around shooting Coypu. Only the chasse can do that .
Locally they despatch trapped Coypu with an iron bar, I have heard them squealing as they are clubbed to death. Chasse are not allowed to despatch them with a gun. Anything but.
One cannot Chasse with a .22 rim fire.
So private lake in safety why does one need the chasse or Mairie permission?
Unfortunately my ipad updated recently and I lost all my Notes . When I find section will post it.
A test case , maybe a group action is needed to stop the Chasse interfering with the law. Culture here is a big thing and vested interest groups like Garde de Peche and local police make their own laws.
Of course it is well known that here one is guility until proven innocent. Which can be expensive to prove hence most cases like this people do not contest . It is then the norm and the Chasse/Police do it out of habit. Until ...........?
Feel I might start using a X bow with scope,night vision to pest control my lake.

Re the spring it was not a springer but PCP , which was shipped with a transit spring of 6fpe. Some dealers/makers use this method and I think is the law in some EU countries,
Have you had a visit from the Police to inspect your security since first buying your 20 joule gun?
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#171 Waz

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 05:25 pm

The Nutria/coypu was held to be a pest, see French govt web site, and could be despatched any way.
Difference is the chasse rules are for hunting and to allow the chasse to despatch the Coypu needed an add to their list of quarry.
Any land owner ,private lake owner could and should help to control this pest. The chasse are bound by their rules and vigorously police their rights.
The chasse are not allowed on my land or my lake.
Therefore to control this species with an air rifle, cricket bat or iron bar is up to me.
I carry pest control insurance, written permission from lake owners .
I do not wander aimlessly around shooting Coypu. Only the chasse can do that .
Locally they despatch trapped Coypu with an iron bar, I have heard them squealing as they are clubbed to death. Chasse are not allowed to despatch them with a gun. Anything but.
One cannot Chasse with a .22 rim fire.
So private lake in safety why does one need the chasse or Mairie permission?
Unfortunately my ipad updated recently and I lost all my Notes . When I find section will post it.
A test case , maybe a group action is needed to stop the Chasse interfering with the law. Culture here is a big thing and vested interest groups like Garde de Peche and local police make their own laws.
Of course it is well known that here one is guility until proven innocent. Which can be expensive to prove hence most cases like this people do not contest . It is then the norm and the Chasse/Police do it out of habit. Until ...........?
Feel I might start using a X bow with scope,night vision to pest control my lake.

Re the spring it was not a springer but PCP , which was shipped with a transit spring of 6fpe. Some dealers/makers use this method and I think is the law in some EU countries,
Have you had a visit from the Police to inspect your security since first buying your 20 joule gun?

 

Are you doing this as a business?

 

Youve heard them being killed with iron bars?

 

& in case you didnt know crossbows arent allowed to be used for hunting purposes.


Edited by Waz, 23 March 2017 - 06:09 pm.


#172 mikewh79000

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 06:08 pm

No not a business

Not heard of them doing this .

Seen them carrying iron bar , taking out of a trap , and despatching it. Took two or three swipes hence the squealing.
Chasse are not allowed to despatch them with any gun , apparently not even a humane killer . Of course to buy the right instrument would cost money they do not have. Or would wish to buy as a club is easier.
I am not anti hunt/chasse just think more respect should be shown to any quarry.
Lifetimes interest in shooting .
What the Chasse do is up to them but to interfere with others controlling coypu pest species by involving police is ....
How would you describe it?

#173 Waz

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 06:29 pm

No not a business

Not heard of them doing this .

Seen them carrying iron bar , taking out of a trap , and despatching it. Took two or three swipes hence the squealing.
Chasse are not allowed to despatch them with any gun , apparently not even a humane killer . Of course to buy the right instrument would cost money they do not have. Or would wish to buy as a club is easier.
I am not anti hunt/chasse just think more respect should be shown to any quarry.
Lifetimes interest in shooting .
What the Chasse do is up to them but to interfere with others controlling coypu pest species by involving police is ....
How would you describe it?

 

I think youve lost a lot in translation when youve been trying to work out the can and cants. 

Im in France myself and lots of what youve said dont seem right, although lots of legislation can change from dept to dept.

If its not work/business, what insurance are you talking about, from what youve written you have been doing control on someone elses lake. What does your written permission enable you to do?


Edited by Waz, 23 March 2017 - 06:31 pm.


#174 Coypu Hunter

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 06:40 pm

Re the spring it was not a springer but PCP , which was shipped with a transit spring of 6fpe. Some dealers/makers use this method and I think is the law in some EU countries,
Have you had a visit from the Police to inspect your security since first buying your 20 joule gun?

 

Nope. I have a 22LR, .410, several air rifles and handguns (22LR and .357 magnum), and have never had a police inspection of my pistol safe or to check how I store my guns & ammo.

 

As far as I can see from the government websites, coypu are classified as a pest species (nuisible). However, as of June 2016, it was not classed as a pest in my department, according to the ONCFS:

 

"La liste des espèces chassables classées nuisibles varie en fonction du département : elle est fixée par l’ Arrêté du 30 juin 2015 pris pour l’application de l’article R. 427-6 du code de l’environnement et fixant la liste, les périodes et les modalités de destruction des espèces d’animaux classées nuisibles (cf p.j).

Concernant l’Ille-et-Vilaine, les seules espèces classées nuisibles (dont les oiseaux) sont :

Département d’Ille-et-Vilaine (35)

Renard: ensemble du département.

Fouine: ensemble du département.

Corbeau freux: ensemble du département.

Corneille noire: ensemble du département.

Pie bavarde: ensemble du département

Pour rappel, la destruction à tir de ces espèces nécessite un permis de chasser, même en terrain privé."

 

Also, they were very clear that coypu are regarded as "chassable", and you therefore need a permis de chasse to shoot them, even on private land:

 

"La destruction à tir des espèces chassables (ragondins/rats musqués) est un acte de chasse et requiert par conséquent la détention d’un permis de chasser, même en terrain privé.

Par contre, pour la destruction des espèces de rats/surmulots…qui ne sont pas des espèces chassables, encore moins des espèces gibier, ne rentrant pas dans la règlementation chasse, il n’y a pas besoin de permis de chasser ;par contre, la règlementation sur la détention des armes de manière générale s’applique, et de surcroit, les règles de sécurité du maniement des armes s’imposent."



#175 Waz

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 07:22 pm

If you are a lake proprietor its been explained to me that you have the right to control ragondin at you own place, normally trap & or gun. Im not saying this is correct for my or your dept. Ive got the permis de chasse so am covered for mine and others, but also have to respect other rulings. Its a minefield & I do my best to not make waves and keep to the rules.

I take it for granted that ragondin are still nuisibles in my dept. If i remember ill phone the federation tomorrow to check. And pose the q? Regarding the right for proprieters.

Edited by Waz, 23 March 2017 - 07:43 pm.


#176 mikewh79000

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 07:56 pm

Hi Waz and CH

Yes dept to dept does vary. Depending I suppose on the degree of nuisance.
Big difference in opinions given by Chasse officers , Mairies and local custom.
Laws have changed recently and in typical Law Giver fashion leave understanding and interpretation to the courts . Hence varied opinions. Without a test case who knows?
I do not believe the Chasse departments are any wiser re use of air rifles for controlling Coypu. They , understandably would give cautious advice and aimed ( lol) at their members best interests.
Whether the recent airgun rules change anything or the statute stating that Ragandins are a pest species, carrying a lethal human disease , mean they may be despatched by airgun is unknown. Indeed including .22 rim fires unless wielded by a PdC holder.
Really we need a class action.

The text kindly provided by CH is not dated .

My young daughter was chased by a Ragandins on our private stretch of water, our dog needed stitches over 3 inches long in her face after encountering a large Ragandins.

My thanks to all who contributed to this discussion. We all learn.
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#177 Coypu Hunter

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:23 am

If you are a lake proprietor its been explained to me that you have the right to control ragondin at you own place, normally trap & or gun.

 

Who explained this to you? The ONCFS?

 

The text kindly provided by CH is not dated .

 

I mentioned that the emails were received in June 2016. You both mentioned a "new" statute classifying coypu as nuisible -- do you have a link to this?



#178 Waz

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:22 pm

 

If you are a lake proprietor its been explained to me that you have the right to control ragondin at you own place, normally trap & or gun.

 

Who explained this to you? The ONCFS?

 

 

A few individuals, all hunters or pieguers, but always when queried get the response 'je crois bien', ive no personal need to investigate further as ive got my permits in place.

 

OK, just phoned the federation de chasse for my departement. A lake owner does not have the right to kill a coypu/ragondin on his own lake.

Without a permit de chasse you do not have any rights to kill any animal thats huntable including nuisibles (pests). I think theirs execptions as discussed earlier, mice/rats & moles probably. 


Edited by Waz, 24 March 2017 - 02:33 pm.

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#179 Coypu Hunter

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:10 pm

 

 

If you are a lake proprietor its been explained to me that you have the right to control ragondin at you own place, normally trap & or gun.

 

Who explained this to you? The ONCFS?

 

 

A few individuals, all hunters or pieguers, but always when queried get the response 'je crois bien', ive no personal need to investigate further as ive got my permits in place.

 

OK, just phoned the federation de chasse for my departement. A lake owner does not have the right to kill a coypu/ragondin on his own lake.

Without a permit de chasse you do not have any rights to kill any animal thats huntable including nuisibles (pests). I think theirs execptions as discussed earlier, mice/rats & moles probably. 

 

 

Yup, mice and rats are classified as "nuisibles commensales" (literally, pests that share man's table), but not as chassable or gibier, so you can use an air rifle or a brick to despatch 'em. :thumbs:



#180 Waz

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:31 pm


 


 


If you are a lake proprietor its been explained to me that you have the right to control ragondin at you own place, normally trap & or gun.

 
Who explained this to you? The ONCFS?
 
 
A few individuals, all hunters or pieguers, but always when queried get the response 'je crois bien', ive no personal need to investigate further as ive got my permits in place.
 
OK, just phoned the federation de chasse for my departement. A lake owner does not have the right to kill a coypu/ragondin on his own lake.
Without a permit de chasse you do not have any rights to kill any animal thats huntable including nuisibles (pests). I think theirs execptions as discussed earlier, mice/rats & moles probably. 
 
 
Yup, mice and rats are classified as "nuisibles commensales" (literally, pests that share man's table), but not as chassable or gibier, so you can use an air rifle or a brick to despatch 'em. :thumbs:

Although it must of course be a metric brick!
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