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Barf Vs Complete


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#16 Vicky Steadman

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:34 pm

the way I look at it, is that dogs survived for millions of years, long before even human beings were on the planet, killing and eating other animals. they ate the offal, the flesh, the skin, smaller/softer bones and the contents of their digestive tracts (vegetable matter, grass etc). watching lions, hyenas & wolves today in the wild you see the same things happening. Their bodies are designed to digest and use fresh raw meat. Dry kibbled/biscuit foods only really came into the picture in the last century, when people needed to save as much quality food and meat for themselves and the dogs were fed sweepings and cheap filler grains instead. Dogs were once fed primarily on butchers off cuts and carcasses but during the wars nothing could go to waste so cheap kibbles became popular.

It makes sense to feed naturally.

when I got my bitch at 16 weeks old she'd been fed on Wagg puppy food. her coat was dull and what came out of her was yellow, soft and stunk. I switched her onto a slightly better quality feed but nothing changed. tried Burgess greyhound&lurcher, her waste became grey but still lose. tried James Wellbeloved and there was some improvement but it was very expensive, also tried a 2kg sample bag of something from the vets that was very high meat content (can't remember the name but the kibbles were soft and meaty) - she liked that but would have been even more expensive and she was still having the runs sometimes.

A friend of mine then mentioned raw feeding so I started getting minced rabbit or chicken from the Prize Choice range, and have never looked back. mix it with a bit of veggies and some rice or porridge oats or something, and her coat began to shine, she became more well muscled, and what came out the other end was just how it should look. I give regular raw beef ribs, lambs legs and the odd chicken wing for diversity and she's in cracking condition. no more flaky skin too! she eats the occasional rabbit that she catches too, which is as natural as things get. the only processed food she gets are gravy bones - as the occasional treat :)


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#17 sandymere

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 08:00 am

LOL in that case you had better start eating roots, berries and the odd bit of raw meat, the naturalistic fallacy is exactly that a fallacy. The diet you use is against the BARF concepts as you use cereals, to my mind very sensible but you would get some stick from any true Barfist.  With working dogs its about feeding to meet their needs based on the real world not fallacy.


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#18 satan80

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 08:39 am

LOL in that case you had better start eating roots, berries and the odd bit of raw meat, the naturalistic fallacy is exactly that a fallacy. The diet you use is against the BARF concepts as you use cereals, to my mind very sensible but you would get some stick from any true Barfist.  With working dogs its about feeding to meet their needs based on the real world not fallacy.

 

 

true, i do get a bit sick of some of the ultra rigid Barf/Raw followers, some of it is so dogmatic (pardon the pun), like you say it's easier to get more and more caught up on what is and isn't 'natural'. The evidence of what works and what doesn't is all anecdotal, so surely whatever works for you and your dogs is the best option, even more so when your evidence is based on how the dogs perform in the field.

My pup get mainly raw, but started to introduce some Gain 20, more for convenience than anything else, a handful or two is a decent enough snack, easy to prepare and useful to have when away from home.

 

The 'barf v complete' is an unhelpful starting point cause it immediately assumes one is better, or one is wrong, when that really isn't the case


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#19 Country Joe

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 08:52 am

I believe You can get too tied up with Barf feeding, I try and keep my feeding regime simple,

It might not suit others, but I get decent results, I do like feeding raw meat. i know prize from pets at home is expensive, but i only have the one dog, so its not a problem.

 

Raw Mince, Chicken, or Beef, this is mixed with Lamb, and heart, i pick up from the cheap counter at Morrisons, I also feed ferreted Rabbit.

Once a week I feed oily fish which again i pick up at the cheap fish counter, This is mixed with a small tin of Sardines in Sunflower oil.

A handful of quality biscuit, with some shredded Carrot or Spinach.

One 5ml spoon daily Gain Garmivit Greyhound supplement.

this is for a 16 week Pup, i know some say it doesn't matter, but i like to feed Chicken wings when big teeth have arrived, i give him lamb breast bones to chew.

when adult and working the only thing i do different, is change the biscuit to Gain 20%

which is their lowest protein feed.


Edited by Country Joe, 04 July 2013 - 08:55 am.


#20 Country Joe

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:26 am

My Neighbor has a 6 months whippet bitch who has seen nothing since being weaned but James Beloved complete, no meat no bones apart from rawhide chews.

This bitch to me looks to be on the lean side, have been out a walk with it, a couple of times and seen her twice do her business and it was yellow, and just flew from her.

been checked out by Vet regularly and been told she is fine, Vet has told her to carry on with complete, saying it contains everything a dog needs.

She does not like my feeding regime.

 

005_zps675e0be5.jpg

16 wks 3/4 Whippet 1/4 Bedlington.

28 lbs or 13 Kilo.


Edited by Country Joe, 04 July 2013 - 10:31 am.


#21 Sirius

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:44 am

I have always fed a natural based diet same as my Father and Grandfather, along time before it was given the annoying tag word of BARF :laugh: Its nothing new or different, its simply feeding a fresh more natural diet.

The principle in general is sound enough but its not rocket science and you don't need to make veggie patties all weekend :laugh: or obsess to the point of losing sleep at night as to whether your diet has enough vitamins and minerals in it.

Do some research, keep it simple and varied and fresh and you wont go far wrong, and dont be confined by a book written by a Vet who invented the name BARF.

 

The benefits are plain to see, and with a bit of experience and once you get your eye in you can adjust the diet to suit your dogs and its work load.

 

Regards Sirius :thumbs:

 


Edited by Sirius, 04 July 2013 - 10:48 am.


#22 Country Joe

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:04 am

totally agree Sirius, i don't feed Barf, but i do feed raw Meat, my regime appeals to me and my dog, but the day it doesn't i will change.



#23 Sirius

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:11 am

Hello all.

 

 I have a freind who trains gundogs..he thinks that redmills and Gain racer/worker complete is better for the dogs than a barf diet.

 

Anyone care to prove him wrong technically.

 

he uses a bit of RAW chicken mince or tripe and adds it to the complete kibble etc etc..I mean a little bit,like 1lb between 8 dogs meals.

 

I said he would be better of with just chicken carcass minced than any of that complete rubbish...but he,s having none of it..he says too much chicken stops the dogs producing enough red blood cells and too many white ?

 

I think chicken carcass is my staple base for the rest of the dogs diet. I add Lamb,Beef,Rabbit,woodies breasts etc etc plus plenty if raw bones and also frozen fresh veg. . . He says the complete does a better job all round.. ?

 

Anyone got the time will or energy to prove him wrong in writing etc etc..I can talk till Im blue in the face..he wont listen..

 

atb

 

Vin

 

What you have to understand in this situation is that the Gundog people particularly have been heavily marketed too for years and years and years that complete diets are best for their dogs. Just walk round any game fair to see how much sponsorship goes on or maybe flick through some shooting magazines.To be honest the working Gundogs market is quite a way behind when it comes to nutrition when you look at the sacks of food marketed to them. Seriously I have been around the industry long enough to have observed this happening, its actually quite similar with training methods that many Gundogs trainers use, they are seriously out of date and haven't moved with the times. You wont change their minds very easily and to be honest why bother if they are happy?  However there has been changes filtering through the industry for years now and if you look at these style of foods 10-15 years ago they were a whole lot different then in ingredients and colours, now they are all trying to manufacture and market their foods with a  'Natural' angle. You know put some better ingredients in it, drop the colourings and put a picture of vegetables on the front of the sack. :laugh:  But ultimately a extruded dry food will never replicate fresh nutrients however good your marketing or manufacture is. Always makes me laugh they bang on about how good dry food is, but as soon as there dog gets a problem its straight on fresh Chicken and rice or similar fresh foods, why? As the dogs body tolerates it better. :thumbs:

Good luck Sirius
 


Edited by Sirius, 04 July 2013 - 11:11 am.

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#24 Giro

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:14 am

 

Hello all.

 

 I have a freind who trains gundogs..he thinks that redmills and Gain racer/worker complete is better for the dogs than a barf diet.

 

Anyone care to prove him wrong technically.

 

he uses a bit of RAW chicken mince or tripe and adds it to the complete kibble etc etc..I mean a little bit,like 1lb between 8 dogs meals.

 

I said he would be better of with just chicken carcass minced than any of that complete rubbish...but he,s having none of it..he says too much chicken stops the dogs producing enough red blood cells and too many white ?

 

I think chicken carcass is my staple base for the rest of the dogs diet. I add Lamb,Beef,Rabbit,woodies breasts etc etc plus plenty if raw bones and also frozen fresh veg. . . He says the complete does a better job all round.. ?

 

Anyone got the time will or energy to prove him wrong in writing etc etc..I can talk till Im blue in the face..he wont listen..

 

atb

 

Vin

 

Always makes me laugh they bang on about how good dry food is, but as soon as there dog gets a problem its straight on fresh Chicken and rice or similar fresh foods, why? As the dogs body tolerates it better. :thumbs:


 

 

Yeah your bang on with that :thumbs:



#25 BORDERSCOT

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:35 am

I was feeding BARF before it was BARF...  :thumbs:



#26 Country Joe

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:46 am

Years ago I had an outside boiler, i used to cook up Green Tripe, Knackery meat, Sheeps Heids, Rabbit, Hare, and i was friendly with a Butcher who supplied me with burst haggis and black puddings.

I would put a ladle of the gravy over brown bread, and a teaspoon of SA50 supplement.

and they also did well on this feed.


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#27 BORDERSCOT

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:15 pm

I believe You can get too tied up with Barf feeding, I try and keep my feeding regime simple,

It might not suit others, but I get decent results, I do like feeding raw meat. i know prize from pets at home is expensive, but i only have the one dog, so its not a problem.

 

Raw Mince, Chicken, or Beef, this is mixed with Lamb, and heart, i pick up from the cheap counter at Morrisons, I also feed ferreted Rabbit.

Once a week I feed oily fish which again i pick up at the cheap fish counter, This is mixed with a small tin of Sardines in Sunflower oil.

A handful of quality biscuit, with some shredded Carrot or Spinach.

One 5ml spoon daily Gain Garmivit Greyhound supplement.

this is for a 16 week Pup, i know some say it doesn't matter, but i like to feed Chicken wings when big teeth have arrived, i give him lamb breast bones to chew.

when adult and working the only thing i do different, is change the biscuit to Gain 20%

which is their lowest protein feed.

 

Laurie

 

What does the Gain Garmvit supplement bring to the table that your feeding doesn't...I hear of others feeding Keeper's Mix...???

 

Just wondering what benefits these supplements bring never having fed them before... :thumbs:


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#28 Country Joe

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:21 pm

It contains all the minerals like Calcium, and vits that I like to give a pup, you probably don't need to give a supplement, especially if you include a lot of bone in the diet, but it gives me peace of mind.

like i said i used to use Sa50 in the past, they still make it, but it has a different name.



#29 dogs-n-natives

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:46 pm

Someone mentioned fish...  just now mine are getting loads of mackerel, easy to catch them in numbers through the summer months, and the dogs do great with the oily fish types. In the winter I sometimes splash out and buy a load of those tinned sardines from Costco lol  great addition to the diet in my opinion.


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#30 Sirius

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:08 pm

Supplementation, its simply adding certain things to the diet that can enhance it or improve it or have a therapeutic effect. Its a hot subject for debate on here and has been done to death.

Yes you could get certain things from the diet, but they are not always there in sufficient quantities to have an effect. A example such as Glucosamine comes from a marine source generally such as shells of crustaceans, so it's not something likely to be found in your average dogs dinner readily.Quality is also important to have a therapeutic effect, as you can buy very cheap low grade supplements on the market from some very dubious companies and there is very little legislation to control there quality. I have been around the veterinary medicines and supplements industry most of my life so I know a little bit about it the subject especially herbals.

 

Country Joe, Its SA37 not 50 mate ;) its no longer available on the market I believe. I think a product called SF50 has been made which is similar. The reason it uses 37 in the name is that it contained 37 Minerals and trace elements, I have heard rumour that it was based on a BHP or pharmaceutical grade Kelp Seaweed, the latter has the benefit of coming from a natural source and its generally better assimilated by the animal. Basically you may as well use Kelp Seaweed as that's what has been done with dogs since Jesus was a boy.

 

Good luck Sirius


Edited by Sirius, 04 July 2013 - 02:12 pm.





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