sandymere 8,260 Posted June 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 If emailing a vet the lactic it may be worth sending this link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1664920/?tool=pmcentrez Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beast 1,884 Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 very interesting, i understand some of this stuff and am struggling on with a medical dictionary in the other in an attempt not to get left behind. i dont know how relevant this is, but my vet spent some time in south africa working with some local vets to capture wild animals. these were mostly hoofed stock (antelope, gazelle etc) and these species tend to be very "stressy" and liable to suffer from what the vets call capture myopathy, which seems to be rhabdomyolosis brought on in part at least by major stress events. the one thing they do is to inject every individual with vitamin e as this has been proven to help with the condition in many many trials in africa of a variety of species not just hoofed stock and apparwently in many european and american zoos for the same problem, so there may well be some help in the use of this vitamin for dogs suffering form rhabdo? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 vitimin e has ben mentioned by a few greyhound trainers as a way of calming down exciteable dogs. it would be interesting to look a bit further into this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,260 Posted June 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Vitamin supplements are an interesting subject at present, as with the lactic acid,. This is an area that has seem radical changes to the old theories due to recent findings. With Vitamin e and selenium it was surmised that animals that live in areas that are short of this were at increased risk of developing capture myopathy, which is a form of rhabdomyolysis. I can across this when I first looked into the field and avoided alluding to it as it was likely to muddy the waters somewhat. The theory was that if it might help animals that were lacking in these substances then it could also follow that other animals ie any excitable animals may also improve. Rather a dodgy supposition, and mainly based on the antioxidant theory. Alas the antioxidant theory along with vit E and selenium have fallen by the wayside somewhat although still advocated for many uses as it takes time for information to trickle down to the grass roots. It could possible be that an animal that is short may have increased risk but it would be very unlikely that a dog fed a normal diet would be short. Then we must consider recent findings that are suggesting that these antioxidant type supplements may actually slow healing rather than help and we are faced with the reality that adding them may well do more harm than good. One of those cases where animals get better in spite of our efforts rather than because of them although the success/survival rate with capture myopathy is pretty poor. This can be demonstrated in that I've found a few references to use of less than appropriate IV management so it would seem to be a field where because of the lack of hard evidence and poor outcomes it's a little open to do anything goes and hope. Study on sled dogs and vit e in relation to rhabdomyolysis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11297943 couple on it in general… http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/antioxidants-and-exercise-more-harm-than-good/ http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/05May/Pages/supplements-special-report.aspx http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8043456.stm as ever edit for spelling lol. Edited June 27, 2012 by sandymere Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,260 Posted June 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Paulus re why dogs suffer with specific muscle damage, the link below discusses an episode of sdingle muscle injury due to this 2nd to a specific exercise in the gym and would back up the idea of why dogs present with different muscle groups than say a human marathon runner. Its only the muscles used in the activity rather than a whole body reaction to a particular waste product that is the problem. http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/36/2/150.full?sid=4e833e69-3545-40b8-b264-94cc72233674 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Paulus re why dogs suffer with specific muscle damage, the link below discusses an episode of sdingle muscle injury due to this 2nd to a specific exercise in the gym and would back up the idea of why dogs present with different muscle groups than say a human marathon runner. Its only the muscles used in the activity rather than a whole body reaction to a particular waste product that is the problem. http://bjsm.bmj.com/...64-94cc72233674 or perhaps its just the back muscles are the weak point of a dog when it comes to rhabdomyolysis, might explain why it only tends to happen to the back muscles on running dogs and not on horses. i think there is a lot of missunderstanding of cramps/acidosis and rhabdomyolysis in general and things tend to get muddled togeather. most dogs if run hard will suffer cramps and stiffness this is acidosis, in most cases a good rub and rest will sort it out in a day or two, if the dog runs harder than its body should allow it to, then the dog may well suffer rhabdomyolysis but not always. in my case i have seen the dog that suffered from rhabdomyolysis run far harder than he did that day but maybe not with so many twist and turns. i still believe the temprement of the dog has a lot to do with it. that day 2 dogs ran, 1 gave up as most would have, but not the one that suffered rhabdomyolysis he will never give up on anything to the point of self distruction. maybe im wrong but who knows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beast 1,884 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 spoke to the vet via email, he said that when the muscle cells break down they release a lot of free radicles which cause a lot of damage. the idea of the vitamin e is because it is an antioxidant and helps to oxidise these radicals which stops the damage. he said ideally you should supplement with dietary vitamin e for some time after the initial injection. not saying this is right sandy and you obviously have your doubts but just throwing another persons opinion into the ring. i also asked him about bicarbonate of soda, as someone mentioned it on one of the threads. he said that feeding it makes no difference to acidosis, unless you are treating ruminal acidosis in cattle etc. for dogs with acidosis it has to be injected in specific concentrations and doses in order to neutralise the blood ph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torchey 1,202 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I,ve got a dog here a 3/4 greyhound cross that on a couple of occasions has pushed himself too hard and i have had too carry him because his back end has just gone and also suffered with his back for a week or two after, tbh its the first time i,ve ever heard of this so could it have been that Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 I,ve got a dog here a 3/4 greyhound cross that on a couple of occasions has pushed himself too hard and i have had too carry him because his back end has just gone and also suffered with his back for a week or two after, tbh its the first time i,ve ever heard of this so could it have been that you would know if it suffered a bout of rhabdomyolysis, to get back right takes 3 months or more and the weightloss in the first few days is impossible to miss. as is the intense pain the dog goes through in the early stages. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torchey 1,202 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The only thing that made me say it was that both times he was on pain killers for a while through back pain struggled laying down and getting back up, you couldn,t touch it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The only thing that made me say it was that both times he was on pain killers for a while through back pain struggled laying down and getting back up, you couldn,t touch it. thats some of the symtoms mate sounds like it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Carraghs Gem 1,675 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok couple of questions in relation to this topic: what types of lurcher are most at risk ? And beetroot is used by athletes to oxygenate the blood, if included in small quantitys in the dogs diet would it help any? Or at least do no harm? Sorry if these are stupid questions Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok couple of questions in relation to this topic: what types of lurcher are most at risk ? And beetroot is used by athletes to oxygenate the blood, if included in small quantitys in the dogs diet would it help any? Or at least do no harm? Sorry if these are stupid questions in my own expierence, it seems be highly strung excitable types also types with very high prey and pain threshold that tend to have that do or die attitude, problem is iits not as simple as type, health, fitness and other factors can also contribute, but also a fully fit dog can suffer for no obvious reason as happened in my case heres a few pictures of the muscle loss in the first few days. 2 shots before 2 shots after. i have no idea on the beetroot theory but ive added tomatoes into mines diet in a bid to add pottasium. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Carraghs Gem 1,675 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 http://www.lovebeetroot.co.uk/healthy_info/beetroot-benefits.asp Beetroot is getting a bit of press lately, a few athletes are talking about it as a pre race drink and it is also a good source of potassium Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 http://www.lovebeetr...ot-benefits.asp Beetroot is getting a bit of press lately, a few athletes are talking about it as a pre race drink and it is also a good source of potassium tomatoes are good :laugh: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-galland-md/tomatoes-health-benefits_b_886214.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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