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New Land with Fallow


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#31 scarecrow243

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:47 pm

more scope for error with a bigger heavier calibre they can both kill and both injure but you need to be more precise with a smaller one otherwise whats the point of different calibres for fox, deer, boar

sorry but that is not true shot placement is more important for instant dispatch the bigger calibre does not have more scope for error i have shot roe deer just over 200yds with my .308 150grn sp and the exit hole was about 2inch heart shot, this was on flat open land the point of a bigger cal is you can use a lighter or heavier bullit head weight instead of haveing a couple of rifles

#32 apollo

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:06 pm

why is it...????..if you was to be a little out with a shot from a smaller faster round it might be 50/50 as to whether you kill humainly but a bigger heavier bullet with say a 30 cal bullet missing by the same amount might give you a greater chance of hitting it down, maybe not by a great percentage but sometimes enough...

#33 scarecrow243

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:23 pm

it was covered earlier lets say the deer is at 100yds and you are very slightly off with the shot the bigger head will do more damage so less chance of deer running off wounded

#34 matt_hooks

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:28 pm

Scarecrow, if that is the case then why do people prefer to use the .308 instead of the .243 because it causes less meat damage?

#35 scarecrow243

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:34 pm

i maybe did not explain it right ie i should have said with the bigger bullit head exspanding it has more chance of hitting the heart even though its just very slightly than the smaller cal

#36 HUnter_zero

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:09 am

The issue over bigger is better.....

Guy's I sort of blame myself for this discussion ;)

The bottom line is that both the .243 and .308 will kill deer. Some people just go and buy a .243 and as we all do, believe what we do is the best. I can remember having a discussion with a chap in work who owned a .17HMR which he used for foxes, to his mind it was the most powerful calibre going, nothing could compare to it. I took him up the range and we shot steel plate at 100 yards, he soon realised that the .17HMR isn't the most powerful calibre of rifle and it's not going to match a .243"
The .243" is a good all rounder if your main task is fox with the occasional deer, which is exactly what the calibre was originally used for. That said, it is deer legal and it will do a fine job on all our smaller deer species but in my opinion will struggle with our larger species and if faced with a 30 stone Exmoor Red, you will be under gunned.
The .308 was also initially designed as a hunting round, and it was destined to become a major favorite after the military started using it.
The .308 will take most anything you have to throw at it, and not just in the UK. It produces a much better terminal ballistic effect than the .243 but is unlikely to be granted for fox control in the common sense.
There are a great many other suitable deer calibres the 6.5x55 being one of my favorites but these days too expensive to feed but also suitable for fox.
There is no doubt that the .308 will out gun any .243 and the terminal ballistics will be far superior but if you want one rifle for both fox and deer, you will be stuck with a 6mm or 6.5mm round. I have the luxury of having both, my .243 being my main fox rifle and my .308 my main deer rifle, that said I love shooting my .243 so do use it on Roe.

I guess if you are going to have just one rifle, then make it a .243 and leave the bigger Bucks and Stags, if you are going to invest in two rifles or simply want a dedicated deer rifle then buy a .308 which will take any and all UK deer.

The issue over training, well I think anyone who has actually stalked, Gralloched and processed a deer will confirm it's not easy and it's not something you can do with out some level of knowledge. I honestly do not believe your occasional rabbit shooter could deal with a Red deer carcass, let alone actually process it.
Like it or not, these days training and certification means everything. I wouldn't surprise me in the least, should some uncertificated deer stalker have an accident that was not his/her fault, the opposing solicitors would use the fact that he/she was not qualified as major leverage and it would not surprise me in the least if a judge actually ruled that the stalker was unqualified to carry out stalking and thus was at fault. That's the world we now live in, it's a blame culture and everyone every where is covering their rear ends with certificates. I am sure that one day, litigation will simply take the form of 'whoever has the higher qualification - wins'.
On the other side of the coin, lets not forget a lot of us have a wealth of knowledge and experience. We could tell the arse end of a roe buck from that of a fallow doe at 1000 yards, but there are also a great many more who can not and there are a great many more who believe they can pick up a rifle, shoot a deer and leave it where it fell. Walking around our very populated UK countryside armed with some very serious equipment calls for more than just deer knowledge, it calls for a total understanding of the capabilities of the rifle, the shooter, respect, restraint and a whole manner of things we take for granted. Deer stalking is becoming more popular and it's easier and easier to start stalking. The problem being if things go wrong whilst stalking, it's normally a major bad! Aunt Betty isn't going to blink an eye lid at a dead rabbit on the road, Ted the rambler will walk passed a dead fox or badger in a field but no one walks passed a dead deer with out asking questions. If we are to protect the future of deer stalking in the UK, we need to realise that the chap down the road who has been shooting for most of his life and is more than happy to teach newcomers does not live in every street of the UK and that a lot of people now enter shooting sports in the same way people take up tennis, the difference being that if a newcomer messes up with a rifle, not only will he/she effect his own licensing but also the license of all UK shooters.

John

Edited by HUnter_zero, 08 April 2012 - 07:16 am.


#37 apollo

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:33 am

agreed...lol

#38 MR TEA POT

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:34 pm

best shot plaecment heart or lung some take neck and head shots but they are harder to take unless you are a very good shot

Just out of interest,before i ask let me point out i have never shot a deer or am i likely to so i have no idea about deer stalking/shooting.My question is why is a head or neck shot on a deer harder,i have shot rabbits out to 100yds head and neck so surely a deers head and neck are easier to hit because they are bigger,i know they move around but so does a rabbits,like ive said i am not a deer shooter it was just a general question.

#39 matt_hooks

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:53 pm

It's not about how difficult/easy the shot is. It's about the consequence of a shot going wrong.

If you shoot at rabbits head at 100 yards and miss a little bit, you are likely to miss the animal completely, or at worst hit the body. Any hit is likely to cause rapid death to such a small animal.

However, if you shoot at a deer head and miss slightly, you are very likely to cause a wound which will not result in rapid death, but will engender a slow, painful death for the animal, either as a direct result of the shot via slow blood loss, or as an indirect result because of starvation (for example of you mis-hit a headshot and damage the jaws. It won't kill the animal but will prevent them from eating so they will die slowly) or through infection.

That's why generally it is frowned upon to take long head and neck shots at large animals. Some people do so, for certain reasons. I shoot deer in an enclosed deer park where following up a mis-hit animal is very easy so head shots are the order of the day. If I am in the field I will take the boiler room shot every time, as it minimises the risk of a wounded animal suffering a long, lingering death. Hit an animal in the chest and you will damage heavily sanguinated blood vessels and death will be relatively rapid.
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#40 Hmr Hunter

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:22 am

Thanks for all the advice guys, probably a little 'Advice Overkill' maybe ? LOL Had my first nights laming on the ground tonight, saw no deer but had a stack of rabbits and called in a nice dog fox to about 80 yards where he became a victim to the HMR (Which seemed to be more than enough calibre to deal with it although it's not a 'desegnated' fox calibre ;) LOL)

#41 foxdropper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:58 am

By the same argument ,Hunter Zero,i would say that if a person dosnt have access to a mentor then the dsc courses should not be a quick fix from classroom to field as they now are .You see ,as soon as the dsc entered the equation then time served became unnecessary ,something to be sneered at and dont say otherwise because ive seen it .Stalking has been a natural progression for me as it will have been for thousands of others from that first rabbit to taking a red stag on the Scottish moors .There is more likely hood of a fault being made from a chap whos only just taken up the sport to one whos been around guns all their life i would say .As to a .243 being THE fox rifle you are far from the truth there mate .The .22 centrefires are designed around this discipline and further to that if you have a .22 centre fire then you wont get fox with a .243 granted for NIGHT HUNTING on your ticket as you already have a designated fox rifle .Taking a fox whilst stalking is as far as the law now allows ,in Wilts anyway .The calibre argument will go on ,mostly by people who read too much and of course by those that are actually out there doing it .

#42 HUnter_zero

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:24 am

1) By the same argument ,Hunter Zero,i would say that if a person dosnt have access to a mentor then the dsc courses should not be a quick fix from classroom to field as they now are .
2) As to a .243 being THE fox rifle you are far from the truth there mate .


1), 101% totally agree with you. In my eyes qualifications don't mean a thing but that's not how our civilised society works anymore.
Let me give you an example. In work we have had guys doing the job for 30 years, a new management team was employed and now unless we have the qualifications, we are out of a job. Simple as that. They are bringing in people with degrees who know nothing about the job, are not very good at the job and paying them more than guys who have been doing the job for 30 years.
We live in a certificated society and like it or not, time served means nothing to the general populace anymore.
I started out on Starlings with a .22 meteor, now I own my stalking rights and lease stalking rights. As luck would have it I did my DMQ's when it was first run, I think I paid 75 for my DSC 1 ;)
As I have already said, put two people in court both novice stalkers, one with DMQ qualifications and the other trained by 'some chap down the road who has been stalking for eighty seven years' and guess which one the court would judge to be capable? As I say, it's a backwards world we live in, but it's not going to change.

2) Not sure where you got that idea from, personally I love the .22-250 for fox, but the .243 will do all that any .22 CF will do and more but for me, it's the easiest option due to the cost of setting up another rifle.
I have never had any rifle "granted" for night hunting, in fact I have never seen this condition on any firearm certificate. I guess they could add it, but hey I don't have any .22cf rifles, so it matter little to me.

John

Edited by HUnter_zero, 09 April 2012 - 07:27 am.


#43 foxdropper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:39 am

There is no grant for night shooting ,the .22 centre fire,if owned , is your designated fox rifle and lamping is accepted as part of its use but because you own the .22 centre fire ,any lamping done with the .243 or bigger would be illegal because its not your desgnated fox rifle and the FEO looks on its use after dark as deer poaching ,at least in WILTSHIRE anyway .Check it out mate .I was astonished too .
Ps- .22,50 is a .22 centrefire

#44 The Seeker

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:17 am

Great thread!

Just to add more confusion I have a .223 and 6.5 x55 on my license for both fox and deer so I could lamp with either (obviously not deer). With a bullet weight from 85gr to 160gr the 6.5 x55 is a very versitile round and excellent deer calibre...

I think there are no guarantees in shooting, a heart/lung shot and you could get a runner other times it would drop like a brick this could be said the for any of the UK deer calibres, we as hunters try to ensure death is as quick and humane as possible on any animal from a rabbit to a red stag.

ATB


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#45 coldweld

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:14 am

There is no grant for night shooting ,the .22 centre fire,if owned , is your designated fox rifle and lamping is accepted as part of its use but because you own the .22 centre fire ,any lamping done with the .243 or bigger would be illegal because its not your desgnated fox rifle and the FEO looks on its use after dark as deer poaching .Check it out mate .I was astonished too .
Ps- .22,50 is a .22 centrefire


Check it out where ?

I have fox granted on my .22rf,.17fireball,.22-250,.260 and 7.62. Non say while stalking.
So you are saying all but the .22-250 can't be used at night ?

Oh and forgot !

The stalkers on here who have shot fallow will not be suprised but the rest might be.

On saturday eveining on my way to a high seat i stalked a Muntjack doe that crossed the ride infront of me, but she would not present a good shot, untill she was about 100m away when she put her head around a tree to take a look at me.
I was on my sticks and waiting ! Neck shot put her on the ground, sorted her and hung up a tree for collection later.
Then on to the high seat for two hours wait, saw a fox at about 300m and another muntjack behind me on a short ride, She was very cautious and walked across the ride while looking in my direction but i dont think she saw me, as she did not bolt or bark, but did not present a shot without messing up alot of meat, so i just watched .
After spotting a group of 18 fallow coming past me from left to right feeding in the wheat field i was faceing at 300m and close to the skyline as fallow doe appered from my right at about 50m i watched her for 10 minuites or so before she slipped back into the wood.
Five minuites later a group of 5 four does and a yearling buck came out of the wood to my right onto the wheat field to feed, when i got the chance i took what some call a perfect shot .
80m broadside just behind the front leg smashing the beasts heart and one lung, upon the shot it ran another 80m away from the wood following the fleeing does before stagering and colapsing dead.
I walked over to the buck to sort him out and drag him 200m to the nearest ride that a 4x4 can get to and radioed my companions.

Rifle used remington model 7 .260
home loaded 129gr hornaday sp
beast weighed 60lb in the larder

So don't think all deer fall over dead when shot . Cause most don't !

Edited by coldweld, 09 April 2012 - 09:52 am.



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