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New Land with Fallow


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#1 Hmr Hunter

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:47 am

Picked up a real nice 300 acre Estate surrounded by Forestry renown for housing Fallow, the Gamekeeper said he saw 7 running through the day before we got there. At the moment I only have 223 on my license for Fox, what would I need to do to legally shoot the Fallow? Obviously thinking I need at least 243 but are there any courses or anything I need to go on? Thanks for the advice in advance.

#2 jamie g

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:03 am

1st off you need permission letter to shoot them, from he land owner etc... as the firearms dept will want that before granting you a deer rifle. my mate has shot a couple with his 243 no problem.
as long as you use the right bullet its more then up to the job. but some people like a bigger calibre though say 25/06 or 270 simple reason it gives you more knock down power and the choice to use heavier bullets.

ive just sold a 270 and going to get a 6mm of some sort.as it suites my needs better here we only have munty and roe. if i had land with fallow on though I would have kept the 270 :thumbs:

some firearms dept want you to take a dcs1 before granting you a deer calibre. here in west mercia they dont push that on you. but would like you to.
i think if you can go with someone who has been in the deer game for abit your learn a hell of a lot off them

Edited by jamie g, 04 April 2012 - 09:04 am.


#3 derek.snr

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:21 pm

fallow are big deer compared to roe ,yes you can use a .243 but imho its borderline better off with a 308 ,30-06 my choice,or a 270 not as popular as it used to be.with a nice 150grn soft point it would be suitable for all deer without too much meat damage on roe and munties.remember the .243 is the smallest calibre the police can grant for the job not the most suitable calibre for the job ,get opinions from people who actually shoot deer and own both as .243 owners always state its an all rounder for everthing upto red stags as i did til i got a 30-06.

#4 lost scouse

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:42 pm

thats a very nice rifle the 30 06 Derek the kick was,nt as bad as you said :rolleyes: Degsy

#5 HUnter_zero

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:49 am

I guess the first thing that you need to understand is that your FAC is granted for a specific purpose, and that was vermin control (possibly target shooting?). Requesting authority for deer is like applying for a new grant as you are asking to be granted a firearm for a different purpose.
Just because you have the land and the permission and the quarry does not automatically entitle you to be granted authority to shoot deer, this is the first stumbling block that many who wish to start stalking face.

The next thing you need to understand is that deer shooting isn't the same as shooting 'vermin' or small game which can if necessary be shot and left in a hedge row, if you shoot and injure a fox other than your own feelings no one is really going to know and no one is really going to make a fuss if they find a dead fox lying under a hedge the next day.

Shooting deer is the easy part, frankly anyone who can hit a 6" circle at 100 yards can cleanly kill deer, just look at the BDS shoot off's ;)

The hard part is dealing with the deer after the shot, you need to be able to cleanly dress or gralloch the deer so it's fit for the food chain, you then need to extract the deer and you need to be able to store the hung carcass in a fly free environment until you manage to either sell or process the deer for your own consumption which in it's self calls for a whole load more tools and skills.

I don't say this to put you off, more to make you realise that simply shooting a deer isn't that hard at all.

You also need to select the right tool for the job of shooting. I have shot fallow with most calibres and from experience the .243" will not hit hard enough for a dropping shot. Fallow are in my opinion one of the the deer species with adrenalin pumping more often than not which can be tasted in the meat (to our taste buds it's like eating ferrets rear end, not that we have ever tried ferrets rear end), as such a knowledge of deer stalking practices is necessary to achieve any great success with Fallow. A bang of a car door on the edge of the wood at dawn will result in a deer free day.
In comparison, I will stalk woodland reds with a .243" or roe but for fallow I always pick up my .308.

I'm not a great believer in 'course for money' but these days most police forces will demand a DSC1 (deer stalking certificate level one) and or a Mentor before they will grant you authority to shoot deer and in some cases this is most certainly necessary depending on your level of experience and understanding.

This first step is to get written permission stating that you are required to control the deer on the land. Next step is to contact your Firearms licensing office to discuss their requirements. You will have people telling you that what they say isn't the law, but never the less the canny will follow their requests to the letter. I would suggest that you either book an estate stalk or go stalking with someone to get a feel for the sport, then look in to a DSC1 and come up with a plan for carcass holding/preparation. After you have done your research and as long as you wish to proceed, apply for deer shooting authority, a .243" and .308" rifles both of which are the basic tools of the deer stalker. While you wait, spend some time building a fly proof larder which can be made from ply board if needs must, go and study the deer on your patch and learn all you can from local stalkers. The time will come when you will have an FEO visit and you can move on to the next stage. Initially save all the spare money you can, it's not cheap to get set up but the equipment if selected correctly will last a life time. Above all, try to understand one thing that was told to me by a long gone estate deer manager " It's easy to shoot a deer, the skill is selecting the right deer ".

John

Edited by HUnter_zero, 05 April 2012 - 09:08 am.

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#6 charlie caller

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:59 am


The police cannot demand dsc1 or anything else for that matter to grant a deer legal rifle,if they do speak to basc ect,unless of course you wish to do dsc,you have experience with a .223 so moving up to a .243 for instance providing you can show good reason to posess,should be a simple variation,in actual fact .240 is the smallest deer legal calibre for Roe,Reds,Fallow, Sika in England and wales,a .243 with a well placed 100 grn bullet will drop Fallow no problem,I have seen Muntjac run after a hit with a .308,but bullet placement is more important with a .243 than the bigger calibres,also becouse you will get more meat damage with the lighter bullet.
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#7 scarecrow243

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:08 pm

Hi i havent done the dsc1 and i have had fac for years my first was granted for roe deer as i had the farmers permission it was a .243 then i got new land and permission to control roe and fallow useing a 100grn sp the fallow use to run in the wood that was on a very steep slope and it had deer fenceing all around gates at top only pulling a fallow back up was a night mare so i changed to a .308 and 150grn sp they did not run anymore even the big lads fell where they stood i still use a .308 cant beat it in my veiw but others will say different

#8 HUnter_zero

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:33 pm

a .243 with a well placed 100 grn bullet will drop Fallow no problem


I have read this statement many times across forums and have always been interested but have never asked.
What exactly is a well placed shot and what would a badly placed shot be? How would this differ from a well placed .308 bullet and a badly placed .308 bullet?
A well placed .22rf bullet will kill a deer but a poorly placed "any bullet" will not, no matter what calibre it is.
Seems like arm chair twaddle to me.

Bullet placement no matter what calibre you choose to use is paramount.

John

Edited by HUnter_zero, 05 April 2012 - 04:36 pm.

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#9 scarecrow243

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:16 pm

best shot plaecment heart or lung some take neck and head shots but they are harder to take unless you are a very good shot

#10 charlie caller

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:05 am


a .243 with a well placed 100 grn bullet will drop Fallow no problem


I have read this statement many times across forums and have always been interested but have never asked.
What exactly is a well placed shot and what would a badly placed shot be? How would this differ from a well placed .308 bullet and a badly placed .308 bullet?
A well placed .22rf bullet will kill a deer but a poorly placed "any bullet" will not, no matter what calibre it is.
Seems like arm chair twaddle to me.

Bullet placement no matter what calibre you choose to use is paramount.

John

My point being that if you use a .243 to shoot the larger species of deer,bullet placement is very important,a neck shot with any rifle [within reason] will drop a deer on the spot irespective of size/species,but for the average shot with his factory rifle using factory bullets the boiler room shot is always best,the fact that you are using a 30-06 does not mean that you can just aim for somwhere vaigly in the middle and hope for the best,as I am sure happens with some becouse they are using a large calibre,how many .308 shooters out there can hand on heart say they can hit the shiny end of a bean can 5 out of 5 shots at 250 yds,I can with the .243 with handloads,it is all about where you put that bullet,there is no excuse for less than 100% accuracy whatever calibre you use.
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#11 HUnter_zero

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:36 am

My point being that if you use a .243 to shoot the larger species of deer,bullet placement is very important


You have already said that, so how exactly does bullet placement differ if you are using a larger bullet?
I am keen to know how bullet placement differs from a .243 and a .308 to achieve a clean kill.

You stated that "a .243 with a well placed 100 grn bullet will drop Fallow no problem" to make such a statement I presume that you are an experienced deer stalker and as such should have no problem explaining how a shot from a .243 will differ from a shot taken using a .308.

Are you suggesting that stalkers who use a larger calibre of rifle, do so to make up for poor accuracy in their shooting or are you suggesting that a poorly placed shot from a .308 will kill a deer, yet a poorly placed shot from a .243 will not?

John

#12 charlie caller

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 03:24 pm


My point being that if you use a .243 to shoot the larger species of deer,bullet placement is very important


You have already said that, so how exactly does bullet placement differ if you are using a larger bullet?
I am keen to know how bullet placement differs from a .243 and a .308 to achieve a clean kill.

You stated that "a .243 with a well placed 100 grn bullet will drop Fallow no problem" to make such a statement I presume that you are an experienced deer stalker and as such should have no problem explaining how a shot from a .243 will differ from a shot taken using a .308.

Are you suggesting that stalkers who use a larger calibre of rifle, do so to make up for poor accuracy in their shooting or are you suggesting that a poorly placed shot from a .308 will kill a deer, yet a poorly placed shot from a .243 will not?

John

Firstly John, yes thankyou I am an experienced stalker, what I am trying to do is lend a little support to the OP,who by good fortune has gained land with fallow deer on it and has authority to shoot them,I am not suggesting as you infer that stalkers using large calibre rifles do so to make up for a lack of skill,I am seeking to reasure him that should he apply for and be granted a .243 it will do the job and put venison in the freezer,as does mine,very nicely,you ask how a shot from a .243 will differ from a .308 well the former will be firing a relatively light fast projectile in a flat shooting format,the latter will be firing a rather heavier slower moving projectile, with a more pronounced ark in its trajectory,as I am sure you are aware,at normal stalking ranges around, shall we say 100yds the trajectory becomes irrelevant,however if a longer shot is to be taken,perhaps around the 200-250 yds mark then the .243 will have a flatter trajectory needing less holdover, and arguably removing some possible shooter error.a POORLY placed shot IE a gut shot from your .308 will not result in a humane kill,however a WELL placed shot from a.243 IE a heart/lung,or neck shot will produce a humane kill,I completely agree that the larger calibre rifles do offer more stopping power and therefore a slightly larger margin for error,but as stated before a .243 is quite up to the job of humanely killing any deer species in the British isles,with a WELL placed shot,so I do not think we need to bombard the OP with negative feedback about his choice of rifle,and finally a point that has not yet been mentioned is the land he has may not be passed for anything larger of course.
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#13 PlasticJock

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 03:28 pm


My point being that if you use a .243 to shoot the larger species of deer,bullet placement is very important


You have already said that, so how exactly does bullet placement differ if you are using a larger bullet?
I am keen to know how bullet placement differs from a .243 and a .308 to achieve a clean kill.

You stated that "a .243 with a well placed 100 grn bullet will drop Fallow no problem" to make such a statement I presume that you are an experienced deer stalker and as such should have no problem explaining how a shot from a .243 will differ from a shot taken using a .308.

Are you suggesting that stalkers who use a larger calibre of rifle, do so to make up for poor accuracy in their shooting or are you suggesting that a poorly placed shot from a .308 will kill a deer, yet a poorly placed shot from a .243 will not?

John

I think he's saying that with the larger calibres, there is a greater margin of error.

We all have had the odd shot that didn't go where we want it to, even the experienced ones... So if your shot is off by an inch with a .308 there's a much better chance of the deer dropping instantly as opposed to the same shot with for example a .243 :thumbs:

#14 scarecrow243

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:57 pm

the .308 is more versatile with bullet head weights from 100grn to 220grn and most factory .308 mrd is 150 yds zero, the 243 is a good round aswell but as i said before the fallow run with the 100grn but 150grn .308 the fell where they stood i am not say people havent had them run

#15 HUnter_zero

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:19 pm

I am an experienced stalker, you ask how a shot from a .243 will differ from a .308 well the former will be firing a relatively light fast projectile in a flat shooting format,the latter will be firing a rather heavier slower moving projectile, with a more pronounced ark in its trajectory,as I am sure you are aware,at normal stalking ranges around, shall we say 100yds the trajectory becomes irrelevant,however if a longer shot is to be taken,perhaps around the 200-250 yds mark then the .243 will have a flatter trajectory needing less holdover, and arguably removing some possible shooter error.a POORLY placed shot IE a gut shot from your .308 will not result in a humane kill,however a WELL placed shot from a.243 IE a heart/lung,or neck shot will produce a humane kill,


An interesting take on how each calibre preforms.
Okay so lets look at what you have said and please correct me if I haven't grasped your opinion correctly. In your opinion the benefit of the .243" over a .308" is trajectory at 250 yards, which will give the possibility of a neck shot? Not sure I can agree that neck shots should be attempted at such extreme range. However, lets look at the ballistics of the two rounds at such range (Calculated by Sierra Infinity 6).

100 grain .243 @ 3000 fps = - 6.22"
150 grain .308 @ 2900 fps = - 7.31"

With just 1" more drop on a .308", I'm not sure you have much of a point here.

Again I'm a little confused about your statement "POORLY placed shot IE a gut shot from your .308 will not result in a humane kill,however a WELL placed shot from a.243 IE a heart/lung,or neck shot will produce a humane kill".

Surely a gut shot from a .243" would not result in a humane kill either ?

Again, a little confusing is your statement "My point being that if you use a .243 to shoot the larger species of deer,bullet placement is very important", yet no you seem to suggest that a .308 is less accurate because around the 200-250 yds mark then the .243 will have a flatter trajectory needing less holdover.

You have yet to actually answer my original question which is: What exactly is a well placed shot and what would a badly placed shot be? How would this differ from a well placed .308 bullet and a badly placed .308 bullet?

John


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