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riflehunter583

.22lr accuracy - paper punching testing

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Hi Deker

 

As i want to give you an interesting reply i have given a little though for you so here we go...

 

i agree with many things you have said and also disagree with many too. like you say it is important not to overstretch your guns killing range with live quarry which deserves our respect and we must be greatful we can shoot it at all for meat or sport. in fact we are privaliaged to do so and should be grateful we are at the top of the food chain.

 

however i disagree that you say i should just get out there and stop fannying around because no matter what you say time spent practicing and homing ones skill (before shooting live quarry), finding the limitations of ones self and kit and drilling good technique is developed on the range and in simulated situations which one hopes to encounter when shooting live game. in others words muscle memory and learning and improving. it best to learn in trainning that learn in theature! - have you ever heard this? so i disagree and i say time spent on the range is never wasted, I have never said that, I have qualified my responses thats why we have so many shooting ranges around the country and the world - a place to train and thats why we have won so many wars together with our kit and our ability to say we will never retreat and never surrender.

back to the main concern....

I think you are missing the point here, and also being to general which is not avisable.

 

MISSING THE POINT:

the point is a matter and question of three things:

 

1. effective killing power for the animal.

2. consitancy

3. acuracy

 

1. at 150 yards with eley sub = approx 50ftlbs. is this enought to kill a crow???? + i use exspanding ammo. What are Eley Subs if not expanding?

2/3.consitancy i can hit a plastic magpie centre mass (accuracy) at 50 - 100 -150 every time pritty much if the wind is not to bad.

There is no debate about the retained energy of a .22lr sub at 150 yards to stop a rabbit, etc, your problem is always going to be accuracy and consistency IN THE FIELD, it isn't a target range! I can achieve V Bulls at 200 yards with my .22lr, sometimes, that doesn't mean it is suitable to use in the field at that distance! My .223 has more than enough energy to kill a rabbit at 2 MILES, and my .308 probably at about 3 Miles, but I don't go out and try.

 

if the wind is to bad i will not be shooting at any crows past 50 yards.

 

so my quesitin to you is why shouldn't i hunt to that range???

Because the range isn't the Field and the opportunity to replicate a one off cold shot in the field is not the same as on the range. I know MANY target shooters who regularly shoot out to 1000 yards, and their accuracy is incredible, yet, with their skills they would not consider live quarry at anything like that distance. Go down to ANY .22lr club and ask their team members their thoughts on 150 yard crow bashing work with a .22lr. They may well invite you to join them if you show them your target work, but they won't say the calibre is suitable for daily field use at that distance!

 

TO GENERAL Deker:

actually it is bad to generalise, why becuase labling a caliber or type of gun is no good. it is a matter of the indivial kit and shooter. some ammo is crap some guns are crap, some shooters are crap. any of the three = bad accuracy and consiteney so i would say in if any of these three were bad then range on a crow with a .22lr should be limited to 40 yards out of respect for the quarry. if shooter is good, and gun is good and ammo is crap then maybe 70 yards. do you get what i am saying here, what i am saying is placing a limited on a calibre or type of setup is to genral and short sighted. more important is to test the shooter and kit so see what its INDIVIDUAL PERFORMACE IS then decide where to draw the line. HENCE ALL THE TESTING TO SEE WHERE I SHOULD DRAWN THE LINE. I feel that the line is 150 yards in my specific instance or in my case, but not all cases are the same. good testing BEFORE hunting is herefore key to find the limit on ones self and kit. Suggesting 100-150 yards is at the extreme range of a .22lr for daily field work is not to general, it is a fact. Suggesting 60-80yards may be to far with a .22lr for others may also be true. Where is your zero? A 40g .22lr has an arc like falling off a cliff at distance, wherever your zero, it is also slow and susceptible to winds, heat eddies and atmospheric variations you cannot even see. Add to that triggers and shooters variables and the answer is simple. It is not predictable enough for consistent humane kills at those distances. That is not just down to an individuals performance, it is down to the calibre and ammo as well.

 

I also think in an idea world .223 is perfect for rabbit, for pest control in some situation say on a scottish moor or somthing like that, but lets get back to reality deker, as rabbit is a major pest and we don't all live on scottish moors and we don't all have deep pokets its not always sensible to spend lots of money on expensive .223 bullets when a rim fire bullet will do the same job cheaper and in some cases quieter. and yes i have see the damaged a .223 will do to a rabbit a bit like fireworks night for all the red mist guys out there. but many times, .223 is to loud, to expensive (rabbits are major pest in large numbers which means a high cost to control them = not viable), to powerful (safety issues in some situations with backstops), thats another reason why i think using that as a comparision is not really a good one. You just don't get it do you.

 

and yes your shooting at 600 y was an experiment, What are you talking about, all I can assume is you are calling ALL target work an experiment! :hmm: what elese could it be. if you experiment with your gun why shouldn't i be abe to, after all its just paper.

 

all that said the debate is very interesting.

 

I have been doing this a VERY long time, I have 8 FAC tools and an assortment of shotguns and air rifles/pistols. This is how I make a living and is also my sport, and despite what many think I will be the first to admit I don't know it all. What my experience has brought me is familiarity with MANY rifles and ammo types, I have a good idea of the suitability and limits of each, and their different ammo, in many many situations, that's why I have so many rifles, 2 of them are .22lr, the rest are all different, I take out the most suitable rifle for every job, I don't take out a .22lr to shoot foxes at 200 yards, and I don't take out a .308 to shoot a fox in a Hay Barn at 20 yards! I don't know how much experience you have, but you obviously lack multiple calibre experience, and your comments show a naivety of inexperience whatever you may think, I am not making that suggestion as an insult, but you are just not getting it, for instance, where have I suggested you get a .223 to shoot your bunnies/crows, yet you launch into a they are too expensive and noisy and not required response. I can't help thinking that if you tried the likes of a HMR, WMR, Hornet, .204, .223 etc you would understand why a .22lr is not a 150 yard Daily Crow bashing tool, despite what you think now!

 

Like I have said, my opinion! Then again you could always listen to richmcgin who will be more than happy to tell you I know squat diddly and I'm talking out of my backside.

 

:thumbs:

 

freezing tonight not a rabbit or fox in sight!

 

deker lad i obviously have much less experience that yourself if what you say is true, and no i have not shot the rifles such as .17 rem and .204 which would be an excellent crow bashing round if a little expensive and high maintenance. sometimes the way you write comes across as a little arrogant at times fact. i always listen to other peoples views and arguments before dismissing then if not reasonable as you never know something someone else has to say may just be right no matter how much experience one has!

however its obvious you are the one that don't get it as you cannot dispute that if the accuracy, consistency and effective killing power is there then its enough for the job and really there is no argument. its just that you cannot accept that you are wrong for a change. factually a number of different types of weapon will do the job in question very well including the .22lr. i am sure the others will do the job better. that does not mean the .22lr is not up to the task if ammo, shooter and gun are working well. fact is and that you cannot accept, that people all around you and in every forum shoot vermin at these sorts of ranges all the time admitted or not with .22lr. sure some will be missing but others won't be. no matter how much you do or say many many people will be shooting out further than me. people shoot crows magpie and the like further out than what i will be doing. me my ammo and gun is capable out to 150 max - fact.

 

an no the .22lr is quiet stable in reasonable winds what you said is just incorrect. i would have though with your expeince you would know this.

 

alot of experienced shooters and hunters have told me this before .22lr 40 grain holds well in the wind!! fact i cannot belive you say it does not. a very good shooter who shot for 40 years told me this.

 

so like i said some of the things u say i agree with and others i don't.

 

just out of interest, from your experience do you think it possible to regularly hit at small target like a magpie's centre mass at 600yards with your .223? if you can as i can with .22lr at 150y then your comparison in an older post is reasonable and i will accept it a reasoable. but if you cannot 9/10 times then your comparison is a little far fetched.

What amazes me, is the shooters that slag of the .17hmr because of the wind, but say the .22rf is better!

The .22rf is probably the worst round out there for the wind.

 

I have to work very hard to get long kills with the hmr, but the .22 should be treated with the same respect.

 

thats strange becuase so many people have said to me its the other way round. maybe both are as bad as each other.

 

i do like to be careful in the wind and limit my range to 50 yards if the wind picks up.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zztEbunnbwU

 

22 LR vs. .308, Distances for Equal 10 MPH Wind Drift This table shows the corresponding distances at which a 10 mph full-value crosswind pushes a 22 LR bullet and .308 projectile the same amount. Values are based on 0.130 BC for a 40gr 22 LR bullet, and 0.496 BC for 175gr .308 bullet. 22 LR

40gr

1050 fps 50 yd Wind

1.0" 75 yd Wind

2.2" 100 yd Wind

3.8" 125 yd Wind

5.8" 150 yd Wind

8.2" 175 yd Wind

11.0" 200 yd Wind

14.3" .308 Win

175gr

2650 fps 130 yd Wind

1.07" 180 yd Wind

2.15" 230 yd Wind

3.68" 280 yd Wind

5.63" 330 yd Wind

7.98" 380 yd Wind

10.71" 440 yd Wind

14.56"

Edited by riflehunter583

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22 LR vs. .308, Distances for Equal 10 MPH Wind Drift This table shows the corresponding distances at which a 10 mph full-value crosswind pushes a 22 LR bullet and .308 projectile the same amount. Values are based on 0.130 BC for a 40gr 22 LR bullet, and 0.496 BC for 175gr .308 bullet. 22 LR

40gr

1050 fps 50 yd Wind

1.0" 75 yd Wind

2.2" 100 yd Wind

3.8" 125 yd Wind

5.8" 150 yd Wind

8.2" 175 yd Wind

11.0" 200 yd Wind

14.3" .308 Win

175gr

2650 fps 130 yd Wind

1.07" 180 yd Wind

2.15" 230 yd Wind

3.68" 280 yd Wind

5.63" 330 yd Wind

7.98" 380 yd Wind

10.71" 440 yd Wind

14.56"

 

That's nonsensical, and completely irrelevant to the debate. The .308 covers the same distance in a much shorter time (even than the .17), so of course it will deflect less given the same BC. The .17 has a far worse BC than the .308, and the LR, so it's a bad example.

 

Put up the figures your program gives you for a 17gr .17, running a BC of about .123 and see what we get!

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22 LR vs. .308, Distances for Equal 10 MPH Wind Drift This table shows the corresponding distances at which a 10 mph full-value crosswind pushes a 22 LR bullet and .308 projectile the same amount. Values are based on 0.130 BC for a 40gr 22 LR bullet, and 0.496 BC for 175gr .308 bullet. 22 LR

40gr

1050 fps 50 yd Wind

1.0" 75 yd Wind

2.2" 100 yd Wind

3.8" 125 yd Wind

5.8" 150 yd Wind

8.2" 175 yd Wind

11.0" 200 yd Wind

14.3" .308 Win

175gr

2650 fps 130 yd Wind

1.07" 180 yd Wind

2.15" 230 yd Wind

3.68" 280 yd Wind

5.63" 330 yd Wind

7.98" 380 yd Wind

10.71" 440 yd Wind

14.56"

 

That's nonsensical, and completely irrelevant to the debate. The .308 covers the same distance in a much shorter time (even than the .17), so of course it will deflect less given the same BC. The .17 has a far worse BC than the .308, and the LR, so it's a bad example.

 

Put up the figures your program gives you for a 17gr .17, running a BC of about .123 and see what we get!

 

these figures are not from me they are off the net. i don't have a program for this find it yourself. it is relevant to what the chap before said relating to the wind comment as a general comparison. your typing is nonsensical as i have never heard of a .123 cal before!

Edited by riflehunter583

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Not wanting to wade into this discussion but Matt_Hooks said a BC of .123 not calibre. BC means ballistic coefficient, which is a measure of a objects ability to overcome air resistance in flight.

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just did that for you guys the .17 came out at 1.8" at 75yrds and as stated above the 22lr is 1" at 75yrds, quite predicatble i would have thought, not quite sure what the argument is here though i must admit.

 

Just noticed the 22lr figure is way off should be between 3.1" and 4.0" depending on which load you use.

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Went out yesterday, zeroed my lr at 60 yards, nice groups within a threequarter inch circle, stuck a lamp on and shot 20 rabbits at various ranges at night.

Job done.

Thats what it all about for me, each to their own though, good luck with the never ending arguments, i'm of to get more rabbits.

 

Atb Chris.

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I've just plugged the data in to chairgun pro, and the .22LR 40 grain, running at 1050 fps and a BC of .130 drifts by 1.4" at 75 yards. The .17, running 17 grain at 2505fps drifts .6" at 75 yards.

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No no read it properly but i used a BC of .139 for the 22lr and .125 for .17

anyone going to tell me why the wind drift question came about???.

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Went out yesterday, zeroed my lr at 60 yards, nice groups within a threequarter inch circle, stuck a lamp on and shot 20 rabbits at various ranges at night.

Job done.

Thats what it all about for me, each to their own though, good luck with the never ending arguments, i'm of to get more rabbits.

 

Atb Chris.

 

That's ok, I was out the other day and shot three reds and a fallow. I've not shot any rabbits recently but that's mainly because I've been shooting bigger stuff.

 

I can, and do, do the going out and shooting stuff bit. Don't see why I shouldn't enjoy the theory too. I don't understand the reverse snobbery, or celebrating ignorance!

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Your mistaken bud, that was not the intention of the post, thats why i said each to their own, i like the theory too then it gets to a point where i find it rather tedious and hair splitting, but thats just my personal opinion of course, had a nice Roe Doe this morning too, love the bigger stuff as well as the smaller prey :thumbs:

 

Atb Chris.

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nothing wrong with theory and without argument nothing new gets discovered.

i can never decide what range to zero at so i set 50,75 and 100.

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My lr is set at 60 yards and i have a little book with my impact points on the reticle written in for various ranges from 20 to 90 yards.

No wind means i rarely miss unless i pull the shot which does happen sometimes.

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