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riflehunter583

.22lr accuracy - paper punching testing

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i am about 1000 feet above sea level here approx.

alot of the subs i fire seems to start to crack a little at my place.

but having just looked it up its to do with temp mainly and not sea level.

 

It is about temperature, but the temperature tends to decrease as altitude increases, so it's linked to altitude. 1000 feet should give a difference of about three degrees, so a change of about 5.4 fps (i.e. nowhere near enough to make a noticeable difference)

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McGin, you are a prize pillock.

 

Read my post. How did I describe transonic flow?

Sorry Mr Hooks i didnt see a post where you described transonic prior to my reply but know i have i see it is correct. and Dekers theory is flawed in that all bullets have to slow but not all become unstable. lets not forget the WSSM rounds they are very fast and mostly accurate,

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just read through a few other posts yes dont worry ladies came here for a reason and as soon as that is done iam away, mind you that said i have had a proper giggle with you armchair shooters,!!!!!!!!!! and it all started because i dared to disagree about the use of 17hmr on foxes over 100 yards. !!!!!!!!!!!

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Just get out there and do it, instead of working out what changes in temp etc, do to the trajectory when paper punching.

 

It might be more important if you were talking about many hundreds of yards. If I see a fox, crow, rabbit, maggie etc the only thing that concerns me is the range and wind speed, along with all the safety issues of backstop. Oblique winds are far more likely to raise or drop your bullet over the distances you shoot at.

 

To be honest I see more than a little justification for that.

 

It seems that riflehunter583 is heading down the path of many a target shooter, looking at as many options as possible and analysing every shot, and often pushing the calibre to limits considered extreme by the hunter. There in nothing wrong with this in principle and every piece of knowledge gained on a range may well have a place in the field, but they are very different places. Shots on the limits of any calibre will always present a mass of problems and variables, barrel temperature, condition, cleanliness, trigger weight/pull, load accuracy, bullet accuracy, temperature, atmospherics, weather, shooting platform, shooters state of mind, etc etc etc, small errors make for big issues at extreme ranges.

 

You don't push calibres to their limits in the field, you get a bigger/more powerful calibre if you need it, you don't have the luxury of sighters, and shots present at all sorts of angles and distances all the time, the quarry will seldom offer you the perfect shot and you don't always have the luxury of waiting for that strong wind to blow over, and cross winds, heat eddies etc have to judged first time. So, using a tool that is well up for the job, rather than one that is capable in ideal conditions is the route! You also have to make VERY quick calls of everything, and then add the safely element as well. Then of course there is the red mist syndrome, you will next to never experience that target shooting!

 

My .223 has achieved 8 VBulls and 2 Bulls at 600 yards, but I'm not in the business of shooting foxes with it that far away!

 

:thumbs:

Edited by Deker
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McGin, you are a prize pillock.

 

Read my post. How did I describe transonic flow?

Sorry Mr Hooks i didnt see a post where you described transonic prior to my reply but know i have i see it is correct. and Dekers theory is flawed in that all bullets have to slow but not all become unstable. lets not forget the WSSM rounds they are very fast and mostly accurate,

 

 

You don't have a clue do you!

 

Homework for today.

 

Go and research common CF calibres, such as .223, .243, and .308,and then you come back and tell me why there is generally little problem with the transonic period and these ammos?.

 

As a designer of ammunition for the Special Forces I'm sure that will be easy for you!

Edited by Deker
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not going to take me up on my offer Deker??.

Dont recall saying i was a designer of anything but i designed one, singular, on its own, one.

Edited by richmcgin

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Transonic is not "0.8 to 1.2" Mach. It has no fixed meaning. Transonic flow around a body is defined as the range of speeds where air flow is a mixture of subsonic and supersonic. A well designed aerofoil (or bullet) might only be "transonic" between .95 and 1.05 Mach.

 

As for the one degree difference in temperature, the standard atmospheric model has a (dry, adiabatic) lapse rate of 3 degrees © per 1000 feet. So your 1 degree drop in temp equates to about 333 feet. As it relates to the speed of sound, a 20 degree difference (between 0 degrees C and 20 degrees C) equates to a difference of about 12 m/s (36 fps) so one degree in that range would approximate to 1.8 fps difference in speed of sound (assuming linearity, which is reasonable at that small an interval)

 

i am about 1000 feet above sea level here approx.

alot of the subs i fire seems to start to crack a little at my place.

but having just looked it up its to do with temp mainly and not sea level.

Just get out there and do it, instead of working out what changes in temp etc, do to the trajectory when paper punching.

 

It might be more important if you were talking about many hundreds of yards. If I see a fox, crow, rabbit, maggie etc the only thing that concerns me is the range and wind speed, along with all the safety issues of backstop. Oblique winds are far more likely to raise or drop your bullet over the distances you shoot at.

 

I am not the one that brought up all this technical stuff i am just comenting on somthing trivial which relates to what people have been discussing!

the main thing i am worried about is wind and distance.

your response is obvious, but thanks for the comment anyway.

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Just get out there and do it, instead of working out what changes in temp etc, do to the trajectory when paper punching.

 

It might be more important if you were talking about many hundreds of yards. If I see a fox, crow, rabbit, maggie etc the only thing that concerns me is the range and wind speed, along with all the safety issues of backstop. Oblique winds are far more likely to raise or drop your bullet over the distances you shoot at.

 

To be honest I see more than a little justification for that.

 

It seems that riflehunter583 is heading down the path of many a target shooter, looking at as many options as possible and analysing every shot, and often pushing the calibre to limits considered extreme by the hunter. There in nothing wrong with this in principle and every piece of knowledge gained on a range may well have a place in the field, but they are very different places. Shots on the limits of any calibre will always present a mass of problems and variables, barrel temperature, condition, cleanliness, trigger weight/pull, load accuracy, bullet accuracy, temperature, atmospherics, weather, shooting platform, shooters state of mind, etc etc etc, small errors make for big issues at extreme ranges.

 

You don't push calibres to their limits in the field, you get a bigger/more powerful calibre if you need it, you don't have the luxury of sighters, and shots present at all sorts of angles and distances all the time, the quarry will seldom offer you the perfect shot and you don't always have the luxury of waiting for that strong wind to blow over, and cross winds, heat eddies etc have to judged first time. So, using a tool that is well up for the job, rather than one that is capable in ideal conditions is the route! You also have to make VERY quick calls of everything, and then add the safely element as well. Then of course there is the red mist syndrome, you will next to never experience that target shooting!

 

My .223 has achieved 8 VBulls and 2 Bulls at 600 yards, but I'm not in the business of shooting foxes with it that far away!

 

:thumbs:

 

thank you for your comments but i would say its always best to learn how to shoot a new gun on the range. time spent practicing is not wasted sorry if you do not agree with this.

 

one thing i have noticed is that you two are asuming i have not been hunting yet. i have been out with the rimmy many times in the last daysvafter rabbit. last time i saw 1 rabbit and 1 rabbit came back with me. the time before i missed the one rabbit i saw. the time before saw 1 rabbit and 1 rabbit came back with me and decided not to shoot a fox becuase of the gun. i am hunting all the time lads!

 

and comparing deer hunting and crow hunting and centre fire and rim fire range is not a good side by side comparision.

 

i enjoy target shooting and also hunting nothing wrong with that both are challenging sports. it just happens that i am target shooting alot recently as this is what i like doing at the minute - leanring every inch of my gun.

 

i also enjoy trying new shooting ranges and angles and in different conditions while practicing.

 

i know that if i can shoot better on the range then it will be the same hunting as accuracy and consistency are key for both no matter what anyone says

 

i like to know the limits of my kit and push the bounteries of the sport where suitable.

 

it would be to boring for me if i concetraed shooting my rimmy to 60 yards. eveyone has shot there rifles over this distance why not me the very fact that you have shot your centre fire at 600 yards shows that you to have wanted to see what you kit and you can do. why can't i do the same??????

 

and i have been hunting since early teens. gernal vermin species so am very experinced in stalking possible better at it than most. now i want to improve my marksmanship to add to that.

 

my crow hunting this time will be ambush style. the challange will be to getting the critters into range 100 yards. by what ever means including such as decoy and other.

 

the confidence i have gained in practice will enable me to visualise clean kills in the knowing that i can if needed take quarry behond the 100 y but only as an occational confiendce booster. however most of the crows sit out to 140 yards on my shoot with no dead ground.

 

i like to test the abilities of myself and my kit to get the best from it thats how i enjoy this sport. if anyone wants to critise this then go ahead but theres nothing wrong with what i am doing it is leagal and reasonable and knowing your setup inside out is no bad thing.

Edited by riflehunter583

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Transonic is not "0.8 to 1.2" Mach. It has no fixed meaning. Transonic flow around a body is defined as the range of speeds where air flow is a mixture of subsonic and supersonic. A well designed aerofoil (or bullet) might only be "transonic" between .95 and 1.05 Mach.

 

As for the one degree difference in temperature, the standard atmospheric model has a (dry, adiabatic) lapse rate of 3 degrees © per 1000 feet. So your 1 degree drop in temp equates to about 333 feet. As it relates to the speed of sound, a 20 degree difference (between 0 degrees C and 20 degrees C) equates to a difference of about 12 m/s (36 fps) so one degree in that range would approximate to 1.8 fps difference in speed of sound (assuming linearity, which is reasonable at that small an interval)

 

i am about 1000 feet above sea level here approx.

alot of the subs i fire seems to start to crack a little at my place.

but having just looked it up its to do with temp mainly and not sea level.

 

There are many factors that could effect it, but unless height/temperatures are Extreme then they will have negligeable effect, most manufacturers subs are designed to perform somewhat below the speed of sound. My first suggestion would be quality control, it is not at all uncommon for a box of subs to have one or two fast ones, and it the case of my last box of Remington subs it was common to have some slow ones that just went phut.

 

Particularly damp atmospherics or foggy weather can also produce some interesting noises with bullets!

 

 

the eleys never sound inconsistent.

all the other subs i have used have tho.

 

thats why i like the eleys so much.

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Just get out there and do it, instead of working out what changes in temp etc, do to the trajectory when paper punching.

 

It might be more important if you were talking about many hundreds of yards. If I see a fox, crow, rabbit, maggie etc the only thing that concerns me is the range and wind speed, along with all the safety issues of backstop. Oblique winds are far more likely to raise or drop your bullet over the distances you shoot at.

 

To be honest I see more than a little justification for that.

 

It seems that riflehunter583 is heading down the path of many a target shooter, looking at as many options as possible and analysing every shot, and often pushing the calibre to limits considered extreme by the hunter. There in nothing wrong with this in principle and every piece of knowledge gained on a range may well have a place in the field, but they are very different places. Shots on the limits of any calibre will always present a mass of problems and variables, barrel temperature, condition, cleanliness, trigger weight/pull, load accuracy, bullet accuracy, temperature, atmospherics, weather, shooting platform, shooters state of mind, etc etc etc, small errors make for big issues at extreme ranges.

 

You don't push calibres to their limits in the field, you get a bigger/more powerful calibre if you need it, you don't have the luxury of sighters, and shots present at all sorts of angles and distances all the time, the quarry will seldom offer you the perfect shot and you don't always have the luxury of waiting for that strong wind to blow over, and cross winds, heat eddies etc have to judged first time. So, using a tool that is well up for the job, rather than one that is capable in ideal conditions is the route! You also have to make VERY quick calls of everything, and then add the safely element as well. Then of course there is the red mist syndrome, you will next to never experience that target shooting!

 

My .223 has achieved 8 VBulls and 2 Bulls at 600 yards, but I'm not in the business of shooting foxes with it that far away!

 

:thumbs:

 

thats becuase you can easily get to within 50 100 150 200 yards of a fox and don't NEED to take long shots relative to your guns capabilities.

 

the crows sit out at 100 - 180 yards so its a poor comparision.

 

and as i have allready said the farmers wife don't like noise and i don't want to loose the land.

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Just get out there and do it, instead of working out what changes in temp etc, do to the trajectory when paper punching.

 

It might be more important if you were talking about many hundreds of yards. If I see a fox, crow, rabbit, maggie etc the only thing that concerns me is the range and wind speed, along with all the safety issues of backstop. Oblique winds are far more likely to raise or drop your bullet over the distances you shoot at.

 

To be honest I see more than a little justification for that.

 

It seems that riflehunter583 is heading down the path of many a target shooter, looking at as many options as possible and analysing every shot, and often pushing the calibre to limits considered extreme by the hunter. There in nothing wrong with this in principle and every piece of knowledge gained on a range may well have a place in the field, but they are very different places. Shots on the limits of any calibre will always present a mass of problems and variables, barrel temperature, condition, cleanliness, trigger weight/pull, load accuracy, bullet accuracy, temperature, atmospherics, weather, shooting platform, shooters state of mind, etc etc etc, small errors make for big issues at extreme ranges.

 

You don't push calibres to their limits in the field, you get a bigger/more powerful calibre if you need it, you don't have the luxury of sighters, and shots present at all sorts of angles and distances all the time, the quarry will seldom offer you the perfect shot and you don't always have the luxury of waiting for that strong wind to blow over, and cross winds, heat eddies etc have to judged first time. So, using a tool that is well up for the job, rather than one that is capable in ideal conditions is the route! You also have to make VERY quick calls of everything, and then add the safely element as well. Then of course there is the red mist syndrome, you will next to never experience that target shooting!

 

My .223 has achieved 8 VBulls and 2 Bulls at 600 yards, but I'm not in the business of shooting foxes with it that far away!

 

:thumbs:

 

thank you for your comments but i would say its always best to learn how to shoot a new gun on the range. time spent practicing is not wasted sorry if you do not agree with this.

 

one thing i have noticed is that you two are asuming i have not been hunting yet. i have been out with the rimmy many times in the last daysvafter rabbit. last time i saw 1 rabbit and 1 rabbit came back with me. the time before i missed the one rabbit i saw. the time before saw 1 rabbit and 1 rabbit came back with me and decided not to shoot a fox becuase of the gun. i am hunting all the time lads!

 

and comparing deer hunting and crow hunting and centre fire and rim fire range is not a good side by side comparision.

 

i enjoy target shooting and also hunting nothing wrong with that both are challenging sports. it just happens that i am target shooting alot recently as this is what i like doing at the minute - leanring every inch of my gun.

 

i also enjoy trying new shooting ranges and angles and in different conditions while practicing.

 

i know that if i can shoot better on the range then it will be the same hunting as accuracy and consistency are key for both no matter what anyone says

 

i like to know the limits of my kit and push the bounteries of the sport where suitable.

 

it would be to boring for me if i concetraed shooting my rimmy to 60 yards. eveyone has shot there rifles over this distance why not me the very fact that you have shot your centre fire at 600 yards shows that you to have wanted to see what you kit and you can do. why can't i do the same??????

 

and i have been hunting since early teens. gernal vermin species so am very experinced in stalking possible better at it than most. now i want to improve my marksmanship to add to that.

 

my crow hunting this time will be ambush style. the challange will be to getting the critters into range 100 yards. by what ever means including such as decoy and other.

 

the confidence i have gained in practice will enable me to visualise clean kills in the knowing that i can if needed take quarry behond the 100 y but only as an occational confiendce booster. however most of the crows sit out to 140 yards on my shoot with no dead ground.

 

i like to test the abilities of myself and my kit to get the best from it thats how i enjoy this sport. if anyone wants to critise this then go ahead but theres nothing wrong with what i am doing it is leagal and reasonable and knowing your setup inside out is no bad thing.

 

I think you may be interpreting some of my post at a slight cant!

 

Everything on a range can have a bearing in the field as I pointed out, primarily to tell you not to shoot that far at anything alive, the .223 was purely an example of the accuracy at distance of my .223, it was nothing to do with a comparison with a rimfire, it was a suggestion that just because I can do that on the range I wouldn't consider it in the field!

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Just get out there and do it, instead of working out what changes in temp etc, do to the trajectory when paper punching.

 

It might be more important if you were talking about many hundreds of yards. If I see a fox, crow, rabbit, maggie etc the only thing that concerns me is the range and wind speed, along with all the safety issues of backstop. Oblique winds are far more likely to raise or drop your bullet over the distances you shoot at.

 

To be honest I see more than a little justification for that.

 

It seems that riflehunter583 is heading down the path of many a target shooter, looking at as many options as possible and analysing every shot, and often pushing the calibre to limits considered extreme by the hunter. There in nothing wrong with this in principle and every piece of knowledge gained on a range may well have a place in the field, but they are very different places. Shots on the limits of any calibre will always present a mass of problems and variables, barrel temperature, condition, cleanliness, trigger weight/pull, load accuracy, bullet accuracy, temperature, atmospherics, weather, shooting platform, shooters state of mind, etc etc etc, small errors make for big issues at extreme ranges.

 

You don't push calibres to their limits in the field, you get a bigger/more powerful calibre if you need it, you don't have the luxury of sighters, and shots present at all sorts of angles and distances all the time, the quarry will seldom offer you the perfect shot and you don't always have the luxury of waiting for that strong wind to blow over, and cross winds, heat eddies etc have to judged first time. So, using a tool that is well up for the job, rather than one that is capable in ideal conditions is the route! You also have to make VERY quick calls of everything, and then add the safely element as well. Then of course there is the red mist syndrome, you will next to never experience that target shooting!

 

My .223 has achieved 8 VBulls and 2 Bulls at 600 yards, but I'm not in the business of shooting foxes with it that far away!

 

:thumbs:

 

thats becuase you can easily get to within 50 100 150 200 yards of a fox and don't NEED to take long shots relative to your guns capabilities.

 

the crows sit out at 100 - 180 yards so its a poor comparision.

 

and as i have allready said the farmers wife don't like noise and i don't want to loose the land.

 

You are misinterpreting my post.

 

It's not a comparison between fox and crow, or rimfire and centrefire, it is a statement that my .223 is very accurate at 600 yards at the range, but I wouldn't consider it at anything like that distance in the field.

 

It means, just because you can put something on a piece of paper at a distance, it doesn't mean you can do that in the field.

 

We use tools up to the job, and a .22lr would not be considered up to the job for field work by many passed 70-80 yards, many use them further, but there are a lot of variables as the distance goes up, so to reduce the possibility of issues you use something more appropriate.

 

I have hit VBulls on numerous occasions with my .22lr at 200 yards, I have also had plenty of very poorly placed shots at that distance, that doesn't work in the field!!

 

Regrettably, the fact the farmers wife doesn't like noise is a problem, but no reason to compromise, we have all faced noise issues and you need to do the job right, or explain to the Farmer why he needs to get his wife in line!

 

I hate giving a range limit to any tool, but I really don't see a .22lr as a 180 yard Crow bashing tool, your 100-180 yard distances scream HMR, or maybe even more!!

 

:thumbs:

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Just get out there and do it, instead of working out what changes in temp etc, do to the trajectory when paper punching.

 

It might be more important if you were talking about many hundreds of yards. If I see a fox, crow, rabbit, maggie etc the only thing that concerns me is the range and wind speed, along with all the safety issues of backstop. Oblique winds are far more likely to raise or drop your bullet over the distances you shoot at.

 

To be honest I see more than a little justification for that.

 

It seems that riflehunter583 is heading down the path of many a target shooter, looking at as many options as possible and analysing every shot, and often pushing the calibre to limits considered extreme by the hunter. There in nothing wrong with this in principle and every piece of knowledge gained on a range may well have a place in the field, but they are very different places. Shots on the limits of any calibre will always present a mass of problems and variables, barrel temperature, condition, cleanliness, trigger weight/pull, load accuracy, bullet accuracy, temperature, atmospherics, weather, shooting platform, shooters state of mind, etc etc etc, small errors make for big issues at extreme ranges.

 

You don't push calibres to their limits in the field, you get a bigger/more powerful calibre if you need it, you don't have the luxury of sighters, and shots present at all sorts of angles and distances all the time, the quarry will seldom offer you the perfect shot and you don't always have the luxury of waiting for that strong wind to blow over, and cross winds, heat eddies etc have to judged first time. So, using a tool that is well up for the job, rather than one that is capable in ideal conditions is the route! You also have to make VERY quick calls of everything, and then add the safely element as well. Then of course there is the red mist syndrome, you will next to never experience that target shooting!

 

My .223 has achieved 8 VBulls and 2 Bulls at 600 yards, but I'm not in the business of shooting foxes with it that far away!

 

:thumbs:

 

thank you for your comments but i would say its always best to learn how to shoot a new gun on the range. time spent practicing is not wasted sorry if you do not agree with this.

 

one thing i have noticed is that you two are asuming i have not been hunting yet. i have been out with the rimmy many times in the last daysvafter rabbit. last time i saw 1 rabbit and 1 rabbit came back with me. the time before i missed the one rabbit i saw. the time before saw 1 rabbit and 1 rabbit came back with me and decided not to shoot a fox becuase of the gun. i am hunting all the time lads!

 

and comparing deer hunting and crow hunting and centre fire and rim fire range is not a good side by side comparision.

 

i enjoy target shooting and also hunting nothing wrong with that both are challenging sports. it just happens that i am target shooting alot recently as this is what i like doing at the minute - leanring every inch of my gun.

 

i also enjoy trying new shooting ranges and angles and in different conditions while practicing.

 

i know that if i can shoot better on the range then it will be the same hunting as accuracy and consistency are key for both no matter what anyone says

 

i like to know the limits of my kit and push the bounteries of the sport where suitable.

 

it would be to boring for me if i concetraed shooting my rimmy to 60 yards. eveyone has shot there rifles over this distance why not me the very fact that you have shot your centre fire at 600 yards shows that you to have wanted to see what you kit and you can do. why can't i do the same??????

 

and i have been hunting since early teens. gernal vermin species so am very experinced in stalking possible better at it than most. now i want to improve my marksmanship to add to that.

 

my crow hunting this time will be ambush style. the challange will be to getting the critters into range 100 yards. by what ever means including such as decoy and other.

 

the confidence i have gained in practice will enable me to visualise clean kills in the knowing that i can if needed take quarry behond the 100 y but only as an occational confiendce booster. however most of the crows sit out to 140 yards on my shoot with no dead ground.

 

i like to test the abilities of myself and my kit to get the best from it thats how i enjoy this sport. if anyone wants to critise this then go ahead but theres nothing wrong with what i am doing it is leagal and reasonable and knowing your setup inside out is no bad thing.

 

I think you may be interpreting some of my post at a slight cant!

 

Everything on a range can have a bearing in the field as I pointed out, primarily to tell you not to shoot that far at anything alive, the .223 was purely an example of the accuracy at distance of my .223, it was nothing to do with a comparison with a rimfire, it was a suggestion that just because I can do that on the range I wouldn't consider it in the field!

 

thats obvious beucase foxs are regualry within 200 y. i saw 2 last night at 110 yards. sadly i had the wrong gun.

like your 600 y experiment i have my own at 180y with the rimmy. does not mean i am going to attempt a crow out to that range with the rimmy as 150 is my limit for that. and yes i can hit the plastic magpie centre mass pritty much every time in low and medium winds with the rimmy at 150 so why not?

 

the very fact that you have tried a 600y experient is good as you were testing out your rifles and ur ability which is good in my view, thus knowing what you kit can do. but best not to critise me for dowing the same with my rimmy as i am entittle to do the same and as the threat states its just paper punching.

 

militray personel shoot out to 600 y with the standard nato round and that is very similar to the .223 and they are shooting at people so you gun is perfectly capable at that range if the taliban come knocking on your door!! but i never hinted that i you or anyone would be shooting anything at that rang. nor have i said i will shoot a crow at 180y.

 

anyhow i digress, i have never had a problem with cant with or without a spirt level, but i have had many cross over problems (pardon the pun) due to poor british craftsmanship :cray:

 

i will put this contact down to bad crossover ;)

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