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sandymere

Coursing thirst.

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Just like to say SM, experience is far more important, than what is written in a book, or on the net.

Read to much and you go mad, talking to dog men that have been in the game years, know more than whats written by some scientist.!

Real life is far different SM, so get out their and get some experience, and get them glasses off and get the hands dirty and dogs wet,,,

Good luck :thumbs:

 

I’ll give you a call when me Granny wants an egg sucked lol.

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The link below shows the danger of thinking we have given a treatment when in reality we have done nothing. The subjects felt marked improvement when given a placebo when in fact they hadn’t had a physical improvement. In dogs the placebo has an effect in the perception of the owner, they feel the dog has made a marked improvement when an intervention has taken place but physically the situation remains the same. The dangers lay in seeing a perceived improvement no further action is taken, ie going to vet, so the longer term damages continues unabated.

 

http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25787

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prior to using recharge my dogs would take at least 2 days to recover and get back their vitality after a hard day or night.

the difference when using recharge often suprises me with the dogs recovering the next day.

As well as using recharge between runs and immediatly after finishing i give dogs newtradex once i have given dog a good checkover and rub down when returned home.

Some dogs i have had have been realy reluctant to drink after hard work which newtradex stimulates which i think is important to flush out lactic acid after work.

I was also adviced to give my dogs arnica tablets by Denis Beary the greyhound vet when discussing acidosis with him.He adviced to give arnica prior to hard work and for 2 to 3 days after.

He explianed that acidosis often comes on 2 to 3 days after hard work.

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prior to using recharge my dogs would take at least 2 days to recover and get back their vitality after a hard day or night.

the difference when using recharge often suprises me with the dogs recovering the next day.

As well as using recharge between runs and immediatly after finishing i give dogs newtradex once i have given dog a good checkover and rub down when returned home.

Some dogs i have had have been realy reluctant to drink after hard work which newtradex stimulates which i think is important to flush out lactic acid after work.

I was also adviced to give my dogs arnica tablets by Denis Beary the greyhound vet when discussing acidosis with him.He adviced to give arnica prior to hard work and for 2 to 3 days after.

He explianed that acidosis often comes on 2 to 3 days after hard work.

 

:yes::thumbs:

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Budgie, dogs presenting with symptoms 2 to 3 days afterwards are most likely to be suffering with either DOMS or RMS, neither of which are acidosis or likely to be helped by electrolyte solutions. It would depend on the severity of the damage but as already stated they may even cause some harm. Basically in simple DOMs how is a drop of sugar water with a pinch of salt going to help?

Re the Arnica, you don’t say what dose etc you use, is it a homeopathic type?

There is some evidence of symptoms reduction when used as a rub but orally it’s a little different. Orally its quiet toxic and need for it with simple DOMs is questionable when one considers the possible side effects see link http://www.drugs.com/npp/arnica.html.

If you are using a homeopathetic tablet (spelling intended) then it’s just a sugar pill and any improvement is imagined, google quack watch or even Wikipedia and look at the subject plus a little link below.

http://www.badscience.net/2009/11/all-bow-before-the-mighty-power-of-the-nocebo-effect/#more-1403

If you can let us know what type of Arnica you are using it would be informative.

 

Blue one, its been brought to my attention by a number of people that you have not had a dog die after RMS but rather that your dog got cramp after a 5 mile trot! Perhaps a little work on its fitness and a little less crying wolf is in order.

 

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The Arnica Tablets are 30c tablets and i give 2 prior to work and then for 3 days after work.They are Nelsons Homeopattic tablets.I cannot make out products contained from the label due to it being scuffed.

 

How do you manage your dogs after hard work.Do you use any suppliments.If so what.

 

Speaking to a Greyhound trainer they use an injectable electrolite solution if their dogs get run too far.They also adviced giving dogs a solutin of bi carbonate of soda and water or milk for maximum of 3 days after realy hard work to help neutralise lactic acid.

I believe this is given intravenally by a vet in acute cases of acidosis.

I had a dog which suffered from acute acidosis and due to poor management by a vet who to be fair had little or no understanding of the condition resulted in the dog never being the same again.After the event i took the dog to Dennis Beary but the damage was done.This is when Dennis adviced the use of Arnica.

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Budgie, firstly the” homeopattic” means it doesn’t have any active ingredients, basically it is based on familial magic ie for a cure for pneumonia; it was noted that ducks get bubbles form on their liver when infected so they took some tissue from ducks liver and mixed it with water then they begin diluting it until it is about equal to one drop in the Atlantic ocean, then its added to sugar pills and expected to cure humans lol! With arnica if it had any real amount it would probably do real harm. I’ll link to a site that goes into it properly. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/?p=38

 

Secondly greyhound trainers, I was one and there are more old wives tales and quack remedies than you can imagine in this field, some are based on dog health, some on horse health and some on pure rubbish. It’s a very competitive area that is peopled with many who know a little, always dangerous, and many who are less than scrupulous. A couple you mention, injectable electrolytes, basically IV fluids need to have electrolytes or they will do a lot of harm, but that is different than drinking the stuff, for those that really need such treatment then unless you are very knowledgeable go to a vet, getting it wrong could vey easily resulting death. Then there’s bicarb for lactic acid, that a bit like putting air in your exhaust because you think you have a flat tyre then find out you haven’t got one anyway. Bicarb neutralises acid, put it in a dogs very acid stomach what happens? It neutralises some of the stomach acid, effect on blood ? nil. That’s the air in the exhaust but what about not having a flat in the first place? The idea of lactic acidosis hours let alone days later is unrealistic, its cleared in minutes as it just a part of the metabolic cycle see link, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-does-lactic-acid-buil more recently it’s not even seen as being responsible for slowed muscle contraction http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html .Basically it’s a bit of a fallacy this whole long term lactic acidosis stuff. So unscientific practice based on a misunderstanding of the chemical processes.

So if you had a dog with acidosis I would be interested in the details as this is an area I’m looking into, there are causes of metabolic acidosis not due to lactic acid and there are respiratory acidosis but again nothing to do with lactic.

 

There is real confusion over lactic acid and RMS even amongst professionals.

Sirius, there is evidence for it as a rub.

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Arnica Montana - to give it its proper name - is also known as Leopard's Bane, mountain tobacco and sneezewort. Found mainly in the mountains of Europe and in Siberia, this homeopathic remedy is made from the dried roots or sometimes the dried flowers of the plant.

 

As a remedy, the most popular ways of using Arnica are either as a cream, which can be used on chilblains, sprains and bruises, or as a homeopathic remedy to help encourage recovery from injury or surgery. The remedies are available as pillules, small tablets that are placed on the tongue and sucked or chewed until they dissolve.

 

How does it work?

Arnica works by stimulating the activity of white blood cells which process congested blood, and by dispersing trapped fluids from joints and muscles and bumped and bruised tissue. It also has anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial qualities and it is these that help to reduce pain and swelling as well as improving wound healing.

 

If you are researching this subjeect there is some excellent information in the book Care of the Racing Greyhound a guide for trainers breeders and vets written by 3 vets.There is a section which is about metabolic disorders and goes into detail into exactly what happens when a dog suffers from either of the 3 stages of Exertional Rhabdomyolysis or acidosis as we refer to it.

 

As described above how arnica works this is obviously the reason arnica is recommended as acidosis is a condition within the muscle cells and their breakdown as detailed in the book.

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Lol I agree arnica has therapeutic uses but homeopathetic doses don't actually contain any arnica! So if the tablets you were giving haven’t got any arnica in them what’s the point of extolling the virtues of arnica? Take it you didn't follow the link on the subject, basically it's a placebo and as such is working on your brain not the dogs body, magic potions don’t really work! It doesn’t help your credibility to admit that you use a sugar pill and believe it actually works. I can only suggest you go back to the link and follow it to read an independent review of homeopathy.

Now to the main subject; Acidosis, acidosis is not Rhabodmyolysis (RMS) these are two completely different things which was the whole purpose of the initial post lol. RMS is the destruction of muscle cells and their contents being released into the blood stream including their electrolytes. This is real simple stuff, if there is a release of extra electrolytes into the blood stream then why would you want to give a load more orally?

Secondly, Acidosis, this is when the pH of the blood goes outside of the normal range into a more acid state, there are two types to consider respiratory and metabolic. An example of respiratory would be if the breathing rate slowed down to much, the carbon dioxide (CO2) wasn’t being blown out so would increase in the blood stream, as CO2 is acid in solution/blood it makes the blood to acidic, life threatening. (As an aside if the breathing increased for to long then to much would be blown out and the blood would go the other way and become alkalotic). An example of metabolic acidosis could be when the body creates to many keytones, as in untreated insulin dependent diabetes, the keytones build up in the blood and as they are acidic they turn the blood more acidic, keytoacidosis, again life threatening. Now lactic acid, unlike the keytones mentioned, is a normal product that will increase the pH but is cleared in minutes so does not get into dangerous ranges hence three days later it will have no impact, not life threatening but normal. Basically its there then it’s gone, it a good fuel and part of the normal energy cycle. Again follow the links and its all there in simple form.

 

You have yet to describe the situation where your dog was mistreated by a vet or was that just more made up stories; I don't know you and Blue one lol.

Perhaps rather than try to knock you should tell me what you know about RMS and its treatment, it will need more than a quote from a book, and how oral electrolyte solutions will help. Bare in mind the manufactures don’t recommend there use in anything other than mild dehydration and mild dehydration can be adequately rectified with water. A dog with an illness ie Vomiting etc is different, they lose salts in the vomit/diarrhoea so let’s stick to RMS.

Regards the ever ready to learn Sandymere.

 

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Firstly i did not say the vet misstreated the dog he treated it for what he thaught was wrong but as i explianed he was a pet dog vet not a greyhound vet and had no knowledge of acidosis or how to treat it.i provided him with information about the condition but he dismissed the information and refused to read it.He believed the dog had stained a muscle because of the pain it exibited when touched.

He gave the dog pain killer.

The dog exibited al the clinical signs of rhabdomyolysis

very very dark urine

Extreme distress with generalised muscle pain

High temperature.

unable to touch the mucles especially along the back and hind quarters

tendancy to drag hind legs and scuff nail

in extreme pain when getting up

I was told to keep the dog inside but if the temperature did not drop it would die by the next day.

it is my belief the vet did what he thaught was best for the dog

Prior to this condition the dog was very very sharpe but after significant rest and steriods from a greyhound vet high protien diet as adviced from vet he never recovered the pace as happens to most dogs which suffer the condition.

With regard treatment the book i have told you about goes into great detail how to treat the condition but it is for vets because it involves intravenous application of balanced electrolite solution and intravenous application at the same time of sodium bicarbonate

Cooling of the greyhound for 7 hours by applying wet towels or ice packs over affected muscles.

Application of antibiotics in the infusions

antiinflammatory to reduce muscle pain

anobolic steriods to prevent muscle wasteage

mangnetic field therapy is beneficial

high protien meals 3 times a day

rest for 8weeks

if you do not have the book i would advice you to get it as you seem so interested in the subject it will provide you with accurate informed information not personal opinion.

this conditon effects as i understand unfit dogs and getting the dog to fittness is the difficult part without getting too much work.

how many times have people been going to get a dog back when up jumps another it happens to every body.

 

As i have asked before sandymere how do you manage your dogs after work what products do you use.

Please give a reply then we all may get some additional information to manage our dogs.

with regard the arnica i am going to get a new container so i can read the label.

thanks martin

Baught th arnica today contents are

Each pill contains 30 c Arnica Montana

also contains Lactose and Sucrose.

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The man just gives them water, as he reads so much shite in books and the net...!!

Poor feckers!!

SM, you should be had up for neglect!!! :thumbdown:

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Blue one, I will come back to you anon but for now go out and play; the grown ups are talking.

 

Budgie, I’m glad that you are now agreeing with me, RMS is not lactic acidosis but muscle breakdown, the info you posted, I take it ‘s direct from the book you have, has some merit although a little old. Initial treatment of cooling, fluids and getting to the vet are the most important things as I’ve already said, the rest are interventions that need to be managed by the vet. Personally I always hesitate to dwell on the vets intervention as there are unfortunately some who will try to do it themselves with drugs brought over the internet etc which is a recipe for disaster. I’ll link to a page of treatment but this is stuff that needs a vet’s management.

http://ccn.aacnjournals.org/content/23/6/14.full

there is, it seem, some confusion over giving treatment through a drip and orally, these are two very different things and will give different results as I explained with the bicarb, orally it will de acidify the stomach, intravenously it will de acidify the blood and hence the urine although that is an area of change at the moment. (please its not given because the blood is acidotic but to change the urine to a more alkalotic state).

 

There is a correlation between RMS and very high urine output and it was this that I was highlighting by the post. Alas owners don’t seek early expert help and so many dogs go onto suffer with chronic kidney failure. This is often exacerbated by people giving what they think are treatments, ie electrolyte drink, vit B injection etc, then think its sorted so are even less likely to seek expert help. This brings me to your homeopathy medication, a solution labeled 1C is one part “remedy” and 99 parts water so yours labeled 30c will be diluted another30, ie 30 x 99, basically just water added to a sugar pill in tiny amounts, a placebo sorry.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/homeopathy-and-plausibility/#more-15406

I know some struggle to understand why I link to outside sources of information thinking it is what I base my posts on, in reality it is because I come from a background where its not good enough to do something on another’s say so but that we should be able to back up what we say with evidence. So I try to back that up what I think rather than expect the reader to take my word for it. I have 40 years in sighthounds and that experience is useful but with things like RMS it is only part of the answer and modern medicine must be the leading factor.

The other reason I must admit is that it save me a lot of typing, ie the homeopathy stuff on science based medicine says it all for me.

What I do to help dogs with RMS, I take them to the vet. Dogs that haven’t got RMS but have run hard, I give a drink of water and a light snack as soon as possible after checking them over, then back home to a warm kennel and a small meal. The next day I again check them over, give a good meal and begin active rest such as gentle walks until they are ready to get more exercise and back to work, hopefully, fitter than before hopefully.

The light snack could be as simple as a couple of biscuits or energy bar or as complicated as an egg mixed with a ¼ pint of water and a couple of biscuits, the meal before bedding down could be the egg mix if not already given or some fatty meat with a handful of complete. Basically some carbs to quickly re stock the glycogen along with protein and fats for repair and resting energy.

 

Now if anyone has any problems with the original post then please quote the bit you disagree with adding why and I will endeavour to justify the post or if it turns out to be unjustifiable I will learn something.

Regards Sandy.

 

Lastly………………………………………………………………..

 

Right Blue one, with your outstanding knowledge of canine physiology you can give us the benefit of your wisdom.

A scenario, whippet travelling to work, 1 hour trip, excited and panting to the extent it mists up the back of the vehicle the whole way. On arrival straight out, hundred yard walk with the dog pulling on slip as warm up, then slipped on rabbit 50 yds away. Outcome, cramped up before it made contact at 75 yards.

So what would you do?

What caused the problem?

I eagerly await your reply! (please don’t mention cottage cheese!)

 

 

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Sandy,I have found this a very interesting thread having kept running dogs of many crosses for over 40yrs,I've only ever suffered similar problems to what you describe with one particular dog,he was a rough coated deerhound/greyhound over a collie/greyhound,a very laid back sort of a dog that was out with me at least 4 hours a day everyday (7 days),we would seriously course hares a couple of times a week,when aged about 3yrs and after a very long extended course that went on nearly 5 mins,he came back knackered and as with all my dogs headed straight for the nearest cow trough,stream or pond to cool his blood down,after a couple of mins of him drinking and relaxing he was rubbed down and taken back to the car,everything seemed normal,he may of been a bit stiff getting out the car,later that night at last feed 11pm a good 8 hours after he seemed a bit uncomfortable and had no appetite,he had a light walk and was put to bed,he had access to water at all times,when I got up for the morning walk he was very uncomfortable and whining a lot (not like him at all)he went out into the garden and pissed dark urine for at least 2mins as if he had held it since the day before,I took him to a greyhound vet who said he had acidosis and it was quite common in some lines of greyhound,especially those in hot countries like australia,saudi,etc,I was given some anti-water retention tabs and a day later he was fine but after a severely testing run over the next few years the same cycle would happen,my question is do you think he had acidosis or this RMS ?? I retired the dog and he had no hard running in his new home so it seems he had no long term effects from it,the dog was in top condition at the time of the event,do you think that lurchers bred nearer to the greyhound or whippet ie:7/8 crosses suffer more problems than say a first cross ?? by the way I have never had this before or since with any other dog,I do think proper good conditioning is a must for serious hard running and most people waste their money on re-charge and other so called running aids or supplements,I have only ever used good food and honey,milk and eggs as a pre or after pick me up,if you buy off well run tested dogs that are bred worker/worker then they are normally a very healthy beast,it will be interesting to see what you think,this is a genuine question that may help in the future running of my dogs,WM

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