any advice on getting shotgun licence (been declined)

[artschool 2]

I thought the basc will only help you if you are an exising member?

 

it's a bit like waiting till your house burns down and then phoning the insurance company to take out cover.

[JonathanL 4]

Hi,

 

If all is as you say then I think that the police are being unusually harsh. Trespassing on land with a firearm (or imitation firearm) is not, as some have mentioned here, a serious criminal offence. I think that using the phrase 'armed trespass' doesn't help either as it makes it sound more serious than it might be in any particular case.

 

True, you can get 3 months and a fine of £2,500 but that is the maximum and would only be handed down in a very serious case or to someone who had been convicted mulitple times. The actual offence could range from something as minor as nipping across the corner of your neighbours garden with a cased airgun as a short-cut right up to sneaking into the grounds of Buckingham Palace with a sniping rifle with the intention of murdering the Sovereign. Both constitute the same offence.

 

The offence was actually created to deal with poaching, as far as I'm aware.

 

I know at least a couple of people who have such a conviction (not just a caution) and who both have FAC's and SGC's. In your case I don't see what the police justification is for refusing the application. Just because you have this on your record does not of its self mean that you are unfit to be entrusted with a firearm or that you present a danger to the public safety or the peace. Do you have the actual letter of refusal which the police sent you - perhaps there is a clue in there as to why they refused?

 

The Police cannot simply refuse a cert on the grounds of some arbitrary time limit after you cammitted a certain offence. The law is clear on this, sec.28 says;

 

28Special provisions about shot gun certificates.

 

[F1(1)Subject to subsection (1A) below, a shot gun certificate shall be granted or, as the case may be, renewed by the chief officer of police if he is satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to possess a shot gun without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

 

(1A)No such certificate shall be granted or renewed if the chief officer of police—

 

(a)has reason to believe that the applicant is prohibited by this Act from possessing a shot gun; or

 

(b)is satisfied that the applicant does not have a good reason for possessing, purchasing or acquiring one.

 

(1B)For the purposes of paragraph ( of subsection (1A) above an applicant shall, in particular, be regarded as having a good reason if the gun is intended to be used for sporting or competition purposes or for shooting vermin; and an application shall not be refused by virtue of that paragraph merely because the applicant intends neither to use the gun himself nor to lend it for anyone else to use.]

 

Subsection (1) uses the word 'shall'. This means that the police must grant the certificate if you meet the criteria set out in the rest of this section. I see no reason as to why a caution for trespass with a firearm means that you are in anyway unfitted unless there was some other element to the offence. I presume you didn't get violent with the arresting officer or anything?

 

Subsection (1)( says that even simply possessing the gun on it's own with no intention to use it is sufficient good reason. So, mere possession of your grandads guns is ok.

 

You have a few options. Write to the Chief Constable and ask that he explain his reasons for refusing to grant if they aren't already clear from the letter of refusal.

 

You have a right to appeal the decision to Crown Court under Sec.44 of the Firearms Act. The police would have to show what their reasons were for refusing the application. The ones they could show are that you are a danger to public safety or the peace, that you are person who is prohibited by the Act (you aren't) or, that you do not have good reason to possess a shotgun. I don't see that they can make out that case from what you have told us here.

 

If you want to lodge an appeal you need to do it within 21 days of recieving the notice of refusal from the police.

 

Don't worry about your grandads guns. It is irrelavant that someone else is in possession of them. The fact that they are on someone elses ticket does not mean that they are the other persons property. They are your property.

[JonathanL 4]

Trespassing with an Airgun AKA Armed trespass is a criminal offence, you were lucky that the police just gave you a reprimand AKA a caution which by agreeing too, you also agreed that you were guilty.

 

If you look at things, five years ago you were caught and cautioned for armed trespass. You admitted and agreed to the offence.

Not much chance you will be granted a SGC for a good few years.

 

I presume that you did admit to a caution on the application?

 

John

 

I was 16 (so considered a child by police) and it was a first offence so they couldn't really have given me any more, it's a non-specified offence so considered not serious by them.

 

Also - I had to admit the offence really because I was caught red-handed by the police themselves, think I had been seen by someone in the houses at the top of the field and they must have called the police.

 

And yes, I admitted to the caution on the application, I spoke to the inspector about this when he came out to the house, and although he did'nt see it as a problem I presume the decision isn't up to him and everything seemed to go well, he was satisfied that the gun would be used for shooting vermin etc. he saw that we have ferrets and working dogs.

 

I'm gutted don't know where to turn, but will definitely be contacting BASC when I join hopefully they will be able to offer something.

 

Thanks for reply

 

The section is subject to a caveat in that it is only committed if you do not have 'reasonable excuse' for being on the land. Did you have any reasonable excuse, do you think?

 

Also, do you have a record of what particular section they did you under? If on land it should be sec.20(2). Perhaps they mistakenly did you under sec.20(1) which is trespassing in a building with a firearm which carries a higher potential maximum and is seen as a more serious offence. It's getting very close to armed burglary.

 

Out of interest, did you have a solicitor present when you accepted the caution?

 

J.

[lurcherterrierferret 2]

thanks to all for replies. I have never had insurance, only went pigeon shooting as a kid to feed my ferret!! And have only just got into shooting, lurchers and ferreting more recently and am just starting out. I do have some permission already and it was my intention to get insurance ready for this season, I mean who at 16 with no guidance from anyone else goes out with an air rifle and thinks maybe they should have insurance!?!

 

The offence: I was in a field just off a public footpath (had jumped over a stream onto private land), the air rifle was not loaded at the time but was being carried in my hand, not in a slip. I was arrested, didn't kick up any fuss and I didn't have a solicitor, didnt really occur to me at the time why i'd need one, although now wish i had of done!

 

I know I did the crime and I'm not expecting to have it wiped off my reocrds, I am merely asking for advice as to how I can go about getting my SGC as above have said surely this shouldn't prevent me from having it and the previous offence doesn't make me a danger to the public. I was only after a couple of pigeons so really no real excuse for me being there I thought 5 years without being in trouble would have been enough.

 

I had my refusal letter through a few months back so unfortunately i'm out of time to appeal and can't really afford to anyway. I am just wondering how long I should leave it to re-apply I was thinking of doing it next year and try and get some things together to strengthen my application (join caly shooting club, get insurance and some more permissions etc.) although I did show him some written permission that I have for rat and rabbit shooting.

 

I did try to contact the chief constable as soon as I got the letter of refusal but nobody would allow me to contact him over the phone which is why I wrote a letter, to which they replied with yet another no. I will dig the letters out tonight to see what they actually said.

[JonathanL 4]

The being out of time bit isn't really a problem, you just re-apply. There is no bar to you doing that. It shouldn't be hugely expensive as there isn't any real reason as to why you can't do all the paperwork your self rather than employ a solicitor to do it. I don't know what the Court fees would be or whether you would be liable for the cops costs if you lose but will look into it.

 

I think it looks very unreasonable of the police as if they intended to refuse on the grounds of the trespass caution they could easily have done so at the outset and not weeks down the line when you'd spent money on cabinets, etc. There are almost certainly going to be other people in your force area who have certs with this type of offence on their file so it could be worth asking whether they have a policy on not granting for a certain period afterwards. That could go in your favour as if they do and they stick rigidly to it then it makes them look even more unreasonable and could potentially point to an unlawful policy being in place.

 

If you are determined that you want it - and you certainly sound like you are - then when you re-apply I think the tack should be to put a covering letter in with the application asking at the outset whether they intende to refuse and to do so as soon as possible so that you can get that part out of the way immediately in order to do the Court appeal.

[markha 99]

Its a shame sure enough, but its the internet and we only ever get half the story half the time, there is always something left out.

Thats what the system of checks is there to do, stop those with previous convictions, relevant to an application, from having guns.

Yes we all make mistakes in our younger years, some are stupid and never done again, some people make more serious mistakes and go on to keep doing them.

You were caught with an air rifle on land you shouldnt have been on, as far as the Police may be concerened they may well just think you'll go and tresspass with a shotgun and also they have had a look at you, the FEO has been round and interveiwed you and made his 3 page report, that's been handed in and the big boss has weighed it all up and said no. They must have a good reason, as to be honest its not hard to get a shotgun ticket.

And yes the FEO is always positive and helpfull, thats their job when they are in your house and face to face, they will never say a bad word to you, most the time they are civilian employees so dont have a copy of your PNC check and to be honest even the FEO who are police officers dont get to see your PNC check anyway so they cant comment on any of your past history.

 

Sorry its not a helpfull positive comment from me, your not the only person who gets declined to own shotguns and firearms. I guess your best to just wait for a couple more years.

[JonathanL 4]

Its a shame sure enough, but its the internet and we only ever get half the story half the time, there is always something left out.

Thats what the system of checks is there to do, stop those with previous convictions, relevant to an application, from having guns.

Yes we all make mistakes in our younger years, some are stupid and never done again, some people make more serious mistakes and go on to keep doing them.

You were caught with an air rifle on land you shouldnt have been on, as far as the Police may be concerened they may well just think you'll go and tresspass with a shotgun and also they have had a look at you, the FEO has been round and interveiwed you and made his 3 page report, that's been handed in and the big boss has weighed it all up and said no. They must have a good reason, as to be honest its not hard to get a shotgun ticket.

And yes the FEO is always positive and helpfull, thats their job when they are in your house and face to face, they will never say a bad word to you, most the time they are civilian employees so dont have a copy of your PNC check and to be honest even the FEO who are police officers dont get to see your PNC check anyway so they cant comment on any of your past history.

 

Sorry its not a helpfull positive comment from me, your not the only person who gets declined to own shotguns and firearms. I guess your best to just wait for a couple more years.

 

I do tend to agree with all you say here, you are certainly correct that we have only heard one side of the story and that is all we have to go on. We can only advise based on the facts presented to us. I'm not saying that the police are wrong or right, just that on the face of the information provided, it does not seem to be sifficient reason to refuse to grant an SGC.

 

There are really only two options here. Either there is more to the story that we haven't been told (and, lets face it, there may be some important fact that even the op doesn't know about), or; the police have got it wrong.

 

The police cannot simply refuse a grant purely on the basis of a caution for trespass with a firearm in the absence of any other reason. The law does not allow them to do that. In order to refuse they must be satisifed that the applicant presents a danger to the public safety or to the peace or that he does not have good reason to possess the gun. A conviction for trespass with firearm may lead to such a belief but the police would need to show why that resulted in them coming to that decision. They cannot simply take the attitdue that such an offence is automatic reason to refuse and they can't apply some sort of automatic blanket time period in which you can never have a cert. As I say though, there may be more to the story that we don't know.

 

The only way that a conviction on it's own can be reason for refusal is if you are a person prohibited from possessing firearms under Sec.21 of the Act. This only applies if you have been sentenced to certain periods of imprisonment and, even then, you are still not a prohibited person unless you were sentenced to more than 3 months and that prohibition only lasts for five years.

 

Your points about PNC checks and things are good ones. You don't really know if there is something on your record that is incorrect which is preventing the grant and I think that is a part which needs to be looked in to. I know a chap who applied to join the police but his application got rejected due to some information they had. It was apparently something to do with either someone he knew or was associated with in some way but they wouldn't tell him precisely. It could have been that he knew someone who had been flagged for something but the cops wouldn't tell him. I wonder of there is something similar going on here and the excuse of the trespass caution is being used to refuse the application?

 

I think that if it were me I'd definitely be putting some effort into finding out more details. If it is the case that everything is as the original poster says with no other complicating factors I think that Court would be my next stop.

 

J.

[Daveizzy1 0]

 

If you aren't a member already, then contact BASCs firearms department for some advice in the first instance.

 

Their legal representatives are skilled in particularly firearms law and so would be perhaps the best persons to speak to.

 

With regards a shotgun certificate, the onus is on the police to prove that you are otherwise so incapable of holding a shotgun certificate and shotguns that if they granted it to you, you would be a danger to yourself and others. If they can't prove that you are some form of danger or untrustworthy person likely to abuse the position of a SGC holder, then they have no choice but to grant it to you. It is a right in law if the above clause cannot be satisfied.

 

Like I saw, ring BASC and if it means joining them then the £60+ whatever it is, would be worth it.

 

SS

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely be joining BASC now, hopefully they can help to support me with this,

 

Cheers

 

I am a member of BASC and have just been refused, they have declined to help me as they said I was aware I would be declined. I made an application after I joined thm and they have just basically sacked me off.

[the goat 642]

When applying for a license, how do you know what offences you have? I got one or two minor offences, but a mate applied a d got declined..he also ended up in court for not putting down an offence which happened 12 years previously.

[walshie 2,804]

If you genuinely can't remember, tell them that and add "Please consult your records." That's what I did.

[the goat 642]

Cheers mate

[Daveizzy1 0]

I thought the basc will only help you if you are an exising member?

 

it's a bit like waiting till your house burns down and then phoning the insurance company to take out cover.

 

They do only help if your a member mate. But if you join with a record knowing you will be refused they will also not help you, member or not.

[Daveizzy1 0]

I have stayed out of trouble for 15 years and just been refused. Chief of police said due to my arrest history (38 arrests between 1996 - 2002 which only 13 have led to subsequent charges) they have intelligence linking me to drugs and drug dealers and I rang the the police once and alleged an assault just to ensure that police came to the property..even though I was assaulted. Very strange really. But yeah if you have been convicted of anything the police will never in 100 million years think well maybe he has changed, maybe his circumstances are different, they honestly do not care and they most certainly do not want you to have a shotgun, period.

 

Recent development on crime and terror: Seems cars are the weapon of choice and knives of late. Will we need vetting to drive a car soon or eat with a knife, or be refused because we have criminal convictions? Its just because the shotgun is on a pedestal as a weapon of choice and desirable in video games, to drug lords and just a load of rubbish. If the police force had their way had their way nobody would own one, ever.

[Rake aboot 4,929]

I have stayed out of trouble for 15 years and just been refused. Chief of police said due to my arrest history (38 arrests between 1996 - 2002 which only 13 have led to subsequent charges) they have intelligence linking me to drugs and drug dealers and I rang the the police once and alleged an assault just to ensure that police came to the property..even though I was assaulted. Very strange really. But yeah if you have been convicted of anything the police will never in 100 million years think well maybe he has changed, maybe his circumstances are different, they honestly do not care and they most certainly do not want you to have a shotgun, period.

 

Recent development on crime and terror: Seems cars are the weapon of choice and knives of late. Will we need vetting to drive a car soon or eat with a knife, or be refused because we have criminal convictions? Its just because the shotgun is on a pedestal as a weapon of choice and desirable in video games, to drug lords and just a load of rubbish. If the police force had their way had their way nobody would own one, ever.

 

Not being funny mate but you were on a hiding to nothing from the get go.

 

No chance you`ll ever get a SGC I wouldn`t think.

 

As for the OP join BASC and question why your ENTITLEMENT to a SGC is being impeded. You don`t apply to get permoission for a SGC it`s yours by right. The cops have to have a good reason to refuse.

Offences whilst a child should not hinder your entitlement as an adult.

[Daveizzy1 0]

 

I have stayed out of trouble for 15 years and just been refused. Chief of police said due to my arrest history (38 arrests between 1996 - 2002 which only 13 have led to subsequent charges) they have intelligence linking me to drugs and drug dealers and I rang the the police once and alleged an assault just to ensure that police came to the property..even though I was assaulted. Very strange really. But yeah if you have been convicted of anything the police will never in 100 million years think well maybe he has changed, maybe his circumstances are different, they honestly do not care and they most certainly do not want you to have a shotgun, period.

 

Recent development on crime and terror: Seems cars are the weapon of choice and knives of late. Will we need vetting to drive a car soon or eat with a knife, or be refused because we have criminal convictions? Its just because the shotgun is on a pedestal as a weapon of choice and desirable in video games, to drug lords and just a load of rubbish. If the police force had their way had their way nobody would own one, ever.

 

Not being funny mate but you were on a hiding to nothing from the get go.

 

No chance you`ll ever get a SGC I wouldn`t think.

 

As for the OP join BASC and question why your ENTITLEMENT to a SGC is being impeded. You don`t apply to get permoission for a SGC it`s yours by right. The cops have to have a good reason to refuse.

Offences whilst a child should not hinder your entitlement as an adult.

 

 

I am a member of BASC they wont help me as they said I knew I would be unsuccessful from the get go, which is fair enough. I shoot with a rifle and work ferrets and dogs anyway so its not the be all for me owning a SG. However, like I said long time without an arrest and my arrest recorded is buffered with nonsense. I have been arrested plenty of times and released without charge just to cause me inconvenience as I was a bit of a wrong un when I was younger I don't deny that. Like I said 15 years I'm married with three kids and I work offshore..got a lot more to lose than a shot gun, just a shame the judge me by looking at a piece of paper, that's the only problem I have. Just booked 50 clays to ease the pain...I'm OK doing that though