pegleg33 134 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stewie 3,387 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts true mate and anyone with half a brain can spell "proprerly" properly and 1000s of lurchers will work just as good as a gundog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Simoman 110 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Why do we train Lurchers and various other types early in their life and yet not train gundogs or manwork dogs until later in their life?......... I used to start manwork dogs of a tug and begin training at 8 weeks BUT your right Wilf, some like to get the basic obedience going first and start manwork at 6-8 months............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pegleg33 134 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts true mate and anyone with half a brain can spell "proprerly" properly and 1000s of lurchers will work just as good as a gundog You're right pal i'm half cut.I should atleast read what i've wrote before before i press the reply button . Still i think their might be a few lurchers as well trained as some gundogs, but then there is gundogs and gundogs.there's alot of shit in both fields mate, and I am almost certain that most beating dogs aren't in the 'well trained' bracket of gundogs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stewie 3,387 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts true mate and anyone with half a brain can spell "proprerly" properly and 1000s of lurchers will work just as good as a gundog You're right pal i'm half cut.I should atleast read what i've wrote before before i press the reply button . Still i think their might be a few lurchers as well trained as some gundogs, but then there is gundogs and gundogs.there's alot of shit in both fields mate, and I am almost certain that most beating dogs aren't in the 'well trained' bracket of gundogs :laugh: spot on mate, couldnt agree more YNWA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shushycatcher 219 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 my collie grey lurcher walks the beating line as good as all the other dogs there.and he retrieves everything i shoot from the peg,plus,if anything else gets up he catches that too! horses for courses lads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Casso 1,256 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Why do we train Lurchers and various other types early in their life and yet not train gundogs or manwork dogs until later in their life?......... I used to start manwork dogs of a tug and begin training at 8 weeks BUT your right Wilf, some like to get the basic obedience going first and start manwork at 6-8 months............. whats the percentage of dogs that dont make the grade,, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lab 10,979 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts true mate and anyone with half a brain can spell "proprerly" properly and 1000s of lurchers will work just as good as a gundog Hahahahahahahaahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahaahahaahhahahaahahahahahaah......not this old chestnut again.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ideation 8,216 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Good question mate, i'd love to know the answer, i've had the pleasure of watching (at one time) the best field trial dogs (and proper working) in the country being trained and they had nowt but socialisation and basics until 7 months or so and then in a reletivly short space of time learnt a huge deal. Now that just doesn't seem to work with running dogs, they run amok if not given shit to learn young it seems. who did these "best trial dogs" belong to? Thought someone might jump on that, they belonged to my Father and his friends at the time, including Peter Clulee, Peter Coombes, Kieth Erlandson, Jack Davies amongst others. . . . . Should have said 'some of the best really' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Casso 1,256 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Why do we train Lurchers and various other types early in their life and yet not train gundogs or manwork dogs until later in their life?......... I used to start manwork dogs of a tug and begin training at 8 weeks BUT your right Wilf, some like to get the basic obedience going first and start manwork at 6-8 months............. Simoman, have you any idea of the precentage of dogs that fail to make the grade in protection or man work, and what would you put it down to, bad breeding, not enough drive,wrong temperment,?? i know a lot of german trainers are not big into the whole pack structure thinking , and have decided on more of a group mind thinking rather than the tradional dominance approach to training, they feel if you inhibit the growing pups conifidence to much you will effect his whole future outlook and make him a little brittle for working, where he will begin to feel the dominance role of the handler in any work ,as in when the going gets too tough he feels the same submissive tendencies he felt when corrected growing up , which can develop into avoidance when the heat is really on,,any thoughts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Simoman 110 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Why do we train Lurchers and various other types early in their life and yet not train gundogs or manwork dogs until later in their life?......... I used to start manwork dogs of a tug and begin training at 8 weeks BUT your right Wilf, some like to get the basic obedience going first and start manwork at 6-8 months............. Simoman, have you any idea of the precentage of dogs that fail to make the grade in protection or man work, and what would you put it down to, bad breeding, not enough drive,wrong temperment,?? i know a lot of german trainers are not big into the whole pack structure thinking , and have decided on more of a group mind thinking rather than the tradional dominance approach to training, they feel if you inhibit the growing pups conifidence to much you will effect his whole future outlook and make him a little brittle for working, where he will begin to feel the dominance role of the handler in any work ,as in when the going gets too tough he feels the same submissive tendencies he felt when corrected growing up , which can develop into avoidance when the heat is really on,,any thoughts Sport dog training and serious protection work are very very different things, in sport training manwork is only part of the job, obedience, tracking and nosework are also vitally important, perhaps more so, in sports such as working trials manwork is treated more as a game, in schutzhund the manwork round is ALWAYS the same so the dog is "pre-programmed" for the round, in the rest of Europe sports such as KNPV, modioring etc the bitework is more geared towards serious manwork. I have trained literally hundreds of dogs to perform manwork, i have never not been able to get an acceptable level of manwork from any of them and many have achieved sport dog qualifications including working trial "patrol dog" tickets, these have been a variety of breeds including shepherds/rotties/Border collies/Labs/Malinois and various others. Now looking at REAL manwork training very few dogs have the neccersary levels of drive and temperament to to be successfully trained to handle manwork situations in real life, including flesh bites and perhaps thigh/shoulder bites, many dogs converted from sport training need time to adapt from the "fiddler crab" look of the criminal to actually biting and hanging onto bare flesh, we used to convert them using hidden sleeves, horse bandages (very painfull) and handler encouragement as when a dog first bites and realises there isn't a sleeve they drop off confused so this must be catered for. I may have wandered off topic sorry, in responce to your question far too many poor quality shepherds are bred from, they are poor both in physical conformation with inherited defects and poor drive/temperament. Britsh bred dogs are pure shit imo, and again imo Slovakian/Belgian/Dutch are breeding the real German Shepherd. I think and prefer the method of starting young pups with manwork training from a very young age as i beleieve it increases the pups confidence, although i also teach obedience, BUT i do this without pressure or any real corrections, more formality is introduced when the pup is 8/9 months, with regards to your question about submission towards the handler being transferred to its work, this isn't something i totally agree with, my dogs have always been high drive yet controlable (i wouldnt say submissive), yet when working have been eyeballs out for bitework. Again the success rate for manwork dogs for sport from WORKING litters is very high, this drops for actual serious bitework but if you looked at the litters from pet bred Shepherds then only a small percentage would make acceptable sport dogs and very very few would make the grade at what i would class as a serious manwork dog. Hope this answered your questions ok? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Casso 1,256 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Why do we train Lurchers and various other types early in their life and yet not train gundogs or manwork dogs until later in their life?......... I used to start manwork dogs of a tug and begin training at 8 weeks BUT your right Wilf, some like to get the basic obedience going first and start manwork at 6-8 months............. Simoman, have you any idea of the precentage of dogs that fail to make the grade in protection or man work, and what would you put it down to, bad breeding, not enough drive,wrong temperment,?? i know a lot of german trainers are not big into the whole pack structure thinking , and have decided on more of a group mind thinking rather than the tradional dominance approach to training, they feel if you inhibit the growing pups conifidence to much you will effect his whole future outlook and make him a little brittle for working, where he will begin to feel the dominance role of the handler in any work ,as in when the going gets too tough he feels the same submissive tendencies he felt when corrected growing up , which can develop into avoidance when the heat is really on,,any thoughts Sport dog training and serious protection work are very very different things, in sport training manwork is only part of the job, obedience, tracking and nosework are also vitally important, perhaps more so, in sports such as working trials manwork is treated more as a game, in schutzhund the manwork round is ALWAYS the same so the dog is "pre-programmed" for the round, in the rest of Europe sports such as KNPV, modioring etc the bitework is more geared towards serious manwork. I have trained literally hundreds of dogs to perform manwork, i have never not been able to get an acceptable level of manwork from any of them and many have achieved sport dog qualifications including working trial "patrol dog" tickets, these have been a variety of breeds including shepherds/rotties/Border collies/Labs/Malinois and various others. Now looking at REAL manwork training very few dogs have the neccersary levels of drive and temperament to to be successfully trained to handle manwork situations in real life, including flesh bites and perhaps thigh/shoulder bites, many dogs converted from sport training need time to adapt from the "fiddler crab" look of the criminal to actually biting and hanging onto bare flesh, we used to convert them using hidden sleeves, horse bandages (very painfull) and handler encouragement as when a dog first bites and realises there isn't a sleeve they drop off confused so this must be catered for. I may have wandered off topic sorry, in responce to your question far too many poor quality shepherds are bred from, they are poor both in physical conformation with inherited defects and poor drive/temperament. Britsh bred dogs are pure shit imo, and again imo Slovakian/Belgian/Dutch are breeding the real German Shepherd. I think and prefer the method of starting young pups with manwork training from a very young age as i beleieve it increases the pups confidence, although i also teach obedience, BUT i do this without pressure or any real corrections, more formality is introduced when the pup is 8/9 months, with regards to your question about submission towards the handler being transferred to its work, this isn't something i totally agree with, my dogs have always been high drive yet controlable (i wouldnt say submissive), yet when working have been eyeballs out for bitework. Again the success rate for manwork dogs for sport from WORKING litters is very high, this drops for actual serious bitework but if you looked at the litters from pet bred Shepherds then only a small percentage would make acceptable sport dogs and very very few would make the grade at what i would class as a serious manwork dog. Hope this answered your questions ok? Thats perfect bud thanks alot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stewie 3,387 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts true mate and anyone with half a brain can spell "proprerly" properly and 1000s of lurchers will work just as good as a gundog Hahahahahahahaahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahaahahaahhahahaahahahahahaah......not this old chestnut again.... right then lab answer this simple question... how many lurchers have you seen work with guns??? be honest now Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lab 10,979 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts true mate and anyone with half a brain can spell "proprerly" properly and 1000s of lurchers will work just as good as a gundog Hahahahahahahaahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahaahahaahhahahaahahahahahaah......not this old chestnut again.... right then lab answer this simple question... how many lurchers have you seen work with guns??? be honest now None.....reason...because you get the proper dog for the job. Its been discussed to death on here mate but the fact of the matter is a well trained lurcher wont come close to a well trained Lab/Retriever at Gundog work. Am sure there are good lurchers out there quite capable of finding and retrieving game but put it up against a proper gundog and it will fail. Also i'm led to believe that a lurcher is alot harder to train for this kind of work than say a Lab so folk just dont do it..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stewie 3,387 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 alot forget gundogs only do half the job as they flush rabbits for someone to shoot whereas a lurcher flushes them for itself to catch,kill and THEN retrieve You're right mate lurchers are hunting for themselves. Once you've trained a dog proprerly that does exactly what you want it to when you want it to do it you'll of figured out how to train a dog properly. Anyone with half a brain can help a dog to find it natural instincts true mate and anyone with half a brain can spell "proprerly" properly and 1000s of lurchers will work just as good as a gundog Hahahahahahahaahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahaahahaahhahahaahahahahahaah......not this old chestnut again.... right then lab answer this simple question... how many lurchers have you seen work with guns??? be honest now None.....reason...because you get the proper dog for the job. Its been discussed to death on here mate but the fact of the matter is a well trained lurcher wont come close to a well trained Lab/Retriever at Gundog work. Am sure there are good lurchers out there quite capable of finding and retrieving game but put it up against a proper gundog and it will fail. Also i'm led to believe that a lurcher is alot harder to train for this kind of work than say a Lab so folk just dont do it..... you seen none but you have read about it on here :laugh: lab i like you and think your a sound lad but im sorry mate your miles out here i know a bloke who used to regularly use his deerhound cross for pigeon shooting and that bitch would sit in the hide all day long and not move untill told and would then go and pick every single pigeon up and retrieve them all perfectly the same dog would fetch geese off a massive lake when he shot them round my way all the old boys used to take there lurchers with them when the went shooting one of the best lamping bitches ive seen would sit without any command if she flushed a rabbit while out with her owner and a gun i could go on and on about this as i have had loads to do with both types of dogs but heres another question mate... can you give me one genuine reason why a well bred, well trained lurcher can not do anything a gundog can do???? just one will do mate and im not being funny in anyway :victory: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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