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any one watching bbc2 scottland tue 10 may 9oc


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#16 Lab

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    Wasnt the carling....it was the tennents and the scrumpy.honest

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 09:02 pm



OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?


It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution goes on!

To the person who says my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?

I always love when people have a view on raptors not doing much damage. If they take 1 bird then there causing damage and we all know the take as much as they can get. They are also trying to learn there young how to hunt and a young poult with not a clue in the world is an easy target. You like the word persecution......nobody is talking about a total wipe out but a chance to cull problem birds at peak times in aid of giving game birds a chance to grow. Theres no point passing the buck on to foxes and other predators when the raptors do alot of damage and some of the larger ones will keep taking birds right up to a fully grown stage.

#17 danw

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 09:31 pm



OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered :thumbs:

#18 EskdaleHawks

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 09:37 pm




OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution goes on!

To the person who says my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?
I always love when people have a view on raptors not doing much damage. If they take 1 bird then there causing damage and we all know the take as much as they can get. They are also trying to learn there young how to hunt and a young poult with not a clue in the world is an easy target. You like the word persecution......nobody is talking about a total wipe out but a chance to cull problem birds at peak times in aid of giving game birds a chance to grow. Theres no point passing the buck on to foxes and other predators when the raptors do alot of damage and some of the larger ones will keep taking birds right up to a fully grown stage.

I don't have the view that raptors don't do much damage. I have seen it with my own eyes in the pen not 50yrds from the house on a yearly basis. You are right about the adult birds teaching their youngsters to hunt and you are also right about the poults not having a clue and being easy meat. Here is the imbalance. The fact that the raptor juveniles have their parents to learn from where as the the reared birds don't. In the wild the poults would learn from the hen bird of what presented danger and what did not. I do not recall passing the buck onto foxes and other predators I mearly said that I have seen hat damage they do as well as that done by raptors. I use the word ' persecution' because that is what is done by a minority of people that get the keepering fraternity a bad name. There are some areas where raptors are just not allowed to exist. Culling is different in that it is done to reduce numbers of an animal in a certain area, for the conservation or mangement of either that particular species of animal or that of another species that is being threatened by an invader, IE: Deer are managed because there are no natural predators to naturally manage numbers and in the case of the Red deer to prevent stavation by over population, and Grey squirrels are culled to help conserve the native Red because they out compete the Reds for both food and breeding territory. hope this clears up any misunderstanding. ;)

#19 EskdaleHawks

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 09:59 pm




OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?

Edited by EskdaleHawks, 30 May 2011 - 10:02 pm.


#20 danw

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 10:18 pm

Illegal persecution does happen and is widely documented it is also deeply criticised and condemned by the majority of keepers non of this is any revelation however and it would be deeply naive to suggest otherwise and yes I do oppose the indiscriminate shooting/poisoning of BOP,
I do not blame BOP for being opportunistic the same as I don't blame the fox but I would like the option of removing problem birds be it under licence :thumbs:

#21 EskdaleHawks

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 10:21 pm

Illegal persecution does happen and is widely documented it is also deeply criticised and condemned by the majority of keepers non of this is any revelation however and it would be deeply naive to suggest otherwise and yes I do oppose the indiscriminate shooting/poisoning of BOP,
I do not blame BOP for being opportunistic the same as I don't blame the fox but I would like the option of removing problem birds be it under licence http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

:thumbs: Good enough for me!

#22 Lab

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    Wasnt the carling....it was the tennents and the scrumpy.honest

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:31 am





OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?
You know fine well it goes on and the reason for this is there is no other way to control problem raptors. No keeper wants to spend all year running about an Estate shooting BOPs, they have enough to do. They would however like an agreed period of time when they are being bombarded with BOPs targeting young poults they could do something about it, this would soon stop any illegal methods of killing BOPs and maybe some folk could get a life and not make it a live long ambition to get people in trouble with the law.
BOPs are not stupid as you say and the pheasant clearly is, majority of them are reared in artificial pens where there are safe from any predator so it does make them an easy target.....i cant understand why some folk would be against a keeper trying his best to look after them, afterall he has a job on the line... :yes:
You've pointed out that you do alot of work on a shoot......i would be really interested in your views how to go around keeping your birds safe from these hungry BOPs....?... :hmm:

#23 keeper1

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 06:28 pm






OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?
You know fine well it goes on and the reason for this is there is no other way to control problem raptors. No keeper wants to spend all year running about an Estate shooting BOPs, they have enough to do. They would however like an agreed period of time when they are being bombarded with BOPs targeting young poults they could do something about it, this would soon stop any illegal methods of killing BOPs and maybe some folk could get a life and not make it a live long ambition to get people in trouble with the law.
BOPs are not stupid as you say and the pheasant clearly is, majority of them are reared in artificial pens where there are safe from any predator so it does make them an easy target.....i cant understand why some folk would be against a keeper trying his best to look after them, afterall he has a job on the line... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
You've pointed out that you do alot of work on a shoot......i would be really interested in your views how to go around keeping your birds safe from these hungry BOPs....?... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


feals like you area bit biast about birds as you fly them? And seam like you want to dam keepers for the persicution of bird of pray. Just because you have a pen 50 yards from your house dosent mean you know [BANNED TEXT] gose on in a keepers life day to day. at the end of the day buzzards are a problem because of ther protection not ther persicution and as you state it dose go on but to [BANNED TEXT] degree is obviusly not makeing a difrence if ther is stll a problem. As all keepers will say its not ther fact that we want them totaly eradicating just controling the problem they have become. its ok talking about foxes but they can legaly be controled and we still get stick for that. The first post was about keepers geting unfare stick from uneducated people nothing about stik for birds of pray as you have decided to turn it into. the post was about informing people about keepering as a job on a whole. but because you have bird of pray persicution on the brain you atomaticly think you can have a dig well dont bother. maby if ther is an education program at some point you take time out to watch it. I thort out of all the places we would get some respect for the work we do it would be on hear. ha obviusly not :no:

#24 EskdaleHawks

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:37 pm







OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?
You know fine well it goes on and the reason for this is there is no other way to control problem raptors. No keeper wants to spend all year running about an Estate shooting BOPs, they have enough to do. They would however like an agreed period of time when they are being bombarded with BOPs targeting young poults they could do something about it, this would soon stop any illegal methods of killing BOPs and maybe some folk could get a life and not make it a live long ambition to get people in trouble with the law.
BOPs are not stupid as you say and the pheasant clearly is, majority of them are reared in artificial pens where there are safe from any predator so it does make them an easy target.....i cant understand why some folk would be against a keeper trying his best to look after them, afterall he has a job on the line... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
You've pointed out that you do alot of work on a shoot......i would be really interested in your views how to go around keeping your birds safe from these hungry BOPs....?... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


feals like you area bit biast about birds as you fly them? And seam like you want to dam keepers for the persicution of bird of pray. Just because you have a pen 50 yards from your house dosent mean you know [BANNED TEXT] gose on in a keepers life day to day. at the end of the day buzzards are a problem because of ther protection not ther persicution and as you state it dose go on but to [BANNED TEXT] degree is obviusly not makeing a difrence if ther is stll a problem. As all keepers will say its not ther fact that we want them totaly eradicating just controling the problem they have become. its ok talking about foxes but they can legaly be controled and we still get stick for that. The first post was about keepers geting unfare stick from uneducated people nothing about stik for birds of pray as you have decided to turn it into. the post was about informing people about keepering as a job on a whole. but because you have bird of pray persicution on the brain you atomaticly think you can have a dig well dont bother. maby if ther is an education program at some point you take time out to watch it. I thort out of all the places we would get some respect for the work we do it would be on hear. ha obviusly not http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
Lab-tastic! The answer could be to put extra birds down to compensate for the expected losses. This practice is already used by some estates.

Keeper 1! IF you had bothered read my post properly you would have seen that I have worked closely with the keepers on the shoot ON A DAILY BASIS, therefore I do understand what goes on in the daily routine of a keeper. My veiws are based on this, as well as observations at the variouse release pens around the estate and not just the one by the house. Yes! I fly birds but I am a shooting/dogman man first. Yes I know what goes on. You are wrong in your assumption that I am biast towards Raptors. SO! I fly birds that is what a falconer does! I also shoot! I go out on the moor, Partridge and pheasant shoots. I used to pick - up six days a week. I have the upmost respect for the job keepers do. The original post was about the keepers getting stick on the BBC for raptor persecution! I have mearly replied to this thread and now find the there are people out there not willing to talk about it and wrongly perceive it as 'STICK' or A DIG! We are all countrymen! AND we all follow country pursuits, we would do well to work together rather than infighting. Hunting, shooting, fishing and falconry (all country sports)need to stick together. So put your dummy back in and grow up!

Edited by EskdaleHawks, 01 June 2011 - 08:38 pm.


#25 longdog98

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:11 pm

f**k me, if we can't talk about this on a forum like this, how is it ever going to get sorted out. All I know is that the media have a hold of something and if we can't get our house in order we'll all be out of our homes and wondering what the f**k happened to our way of life. We all know BoP's are a big problem and it is very frustrating to see some sort of balance needs to be restored in some species (buzzards especially with me). However, anyone guilty of complete intolerance doesn't deserve to call themselves a keeper!
Every dead bird of prey found on a shooting estate is another nail in our coffin

#26 keeper1

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 11:08 am








OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?
You know fine well it goes on and the reason for this is there is no other way to control problem raptors. No keeper wants to spend all year running about an Estate shooting BOPs, they have enough to do. They would however like an agreed period of time when they are being bombarded with BOPs targeting young poults they could do something about it, this would soon stop any illegal methods of killing BOPs and maybe some folk could get a life and not make it a live long ambition to get people in trouble with the law.
BOPs are not stupid as you say and the pheasant clearly is, majority of them are reared in artificial pens where there are safe from any predator so it does make them an easy target.....i cant understand why some folk would be against a keeper trying his best to look after them, afterall he has a job on the line... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
You've pointed out that you do alot of work on a shoot......i would be really interested in your views how to go around keeping your birds safe from these hungry BOPs....?... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


feals like you area bit biast about birds as you fly them? And seam like you want to dam keepers for the persicution of bird of pray. Just because you have a pen 50 yards from your house dosent mean you know [BANNED TEXT] gose on in a keepers life day to day. at the end of the day buzzards are a problem because of ther protection not ther persicution and as you state it dose go on but to [BANNED TEXT] degree is obviusly not makeing a difrence if ther is stll a problem. As all keepers will say its not ther fact that we want them totaly eradicating just controling the problem they have become. its ok talking about foxes but they can legaly be controled and we still get stick for that. The first post was about keepers geting unfare stick from uneducated people nothing about stik for birds of pray as you have decided to turn it into. the post was about informing people about keepering as a job on a whole. but because you have bird of pray persicution on the brain you atomaticly think you can have a dig well dont bother. maby if ther is an education program at some point you take time out to watch it. I thort out of all the places we would get some respect for the work we do it would be on hear. ha obviusly not http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
Lab-tastic! The answer could be to put extra birds down to compensate for the expected losses. This practice is already used by some estates.

Keeper 1! IF you had bothered read my post properly you would have seen that I have worked closely with the keepers on the shoot ON A DAILY BASIS, therefore I do understand what goes on in the daily routine of a keeper. My veiws are based on this, as well as observations at the variouse release pens around the estate and not just the one by the house. Yes! I fly birds but I am a shooting/dogman man first. Yes I know what goes on. You are wrong in your assumption that I am biast towards Raptors. SO! I fly birds that is what a falconer does! I also shoot! I go out on the moor, Partridge and pheasant shoots. I used to pick - up six days a week. I have the upmost respect for the job keepers do. The original post was about the keepers getting stick on the BBC for raptor persecution! I have mearly replied to this thread and now find the there are people out there not willing to talk about it and wrongly perceive it as 'STICK' or A DIG! We are all countrymen! AND we all follow country pursuits, we would do well to work together rather than infighting. Hunting, shooting, fishing and falconry (all country sports)need to stick together. So put your dummy back in and grow up!


and you obviusly didnt read [BANNED TEXT] this was about as ther was no mention of birds of pray in this post. Apart from the fact that you decided to turn it into one? the original postes wer about keepers geting some recognition for the work we carry out on a whole. for you benafit i have coped the the poste so you can read it......how come we are alwase made out to be criminals. people selling crack on street corners get les coverage and hassel. and if they are on tv it leaves you fealing sorry for the poor lost soles!!! how come we never get the recognition for the hard work and time we put in to make the country side what it is. keepers are or should be verry passonate about ther work whitch is more than just a job
mabby the bbc should be educateing the narow minded people who think they no what happens in ther weekend playground. and not the real benifits we bring to the countrside. or maby the bbc should leave us alone and let us do [BANNED TEXT] we do best. just cos u dont eat meat dosnt mean wer c***S. i carn see how that indicates a descution on the persicution of bird of pray???? or maby its just me!! as you state we as countryside sportsmen should say to gether so y bring something into a post that isnt [BANNED TEXT] its about all im saying is it just looks like a good opertunaty for a dig. surly just a few words saying that you reconise the work that is benifical to the country side and its a shame people dont understan would have done. so mutch for sticking together [BANNED TEXT] country men carnt even stop ther self haveing a go eather. brick and wall spring to minde and as for the dummy its fine wer it is thanks

#27 keeper1

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 11:14 am









OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?
You know fine well it goes on and the reason for this is there is no other way to control problem raptors. No keeper wants to spend all year running about an Estate shooting BOPs, they have enough to do. They would however like an agreed period of time when they are being bombarded with BOPs targeting young poults they could do something about it, this would soon stop any illegal methods of killing BOPs and maybe some folk could get a life and not make it a live long ambition to get people in trouble with the law.
BOPs are not stupid as you say and the pheasant clearly is, majority of them are reared in artificial pens where there are safe from any predator so it does make them an easy target.....i cant understand why some folk would be against a keeper trying his best to look after them, afterall he has a job on the line... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
You've pointed out that you do alot of work on a shoot......i would be really interested in your views how to go around keeping your birds safe from these hungry BOPs....?... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


feals like you area bit biast about birds as you fly them? And seam like you want to dam keepers for the persicution of bird of pray. Just because you have a pen 50 yards from your house dosent mean you know [BANNED TEXT] gose on in a keepers life day to day. at the end of the day buzzards are a problem because of ther protection not ther persicution and as you state it dose go on but to [BANNED TEXT] degree is obviusly not makeing a difrence if ther is stll a problem. As all keepers will say its not ther fact that we want them totaly eradicating just controling the problem they have become. its ok talking about foxes but they can legaly be controled and we still get stick for that. The first post was about keepers geting unfare stick from uneducated people nothing about stik for birds of pray as you have decided to turn it into. the post was about informing people about keepering as a job on a whole. but because you have bird of pray persicution on the brain you atomaticly think you can have a dig well dont bother. maby if ther is an education program at some point you take time out to watch it. I thort out of all the places we would get some respect for the work we do it would be on hear. ha obviusly not http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
Lab-tastic! The answer could be to put extra birds down to compensate for the expected losses. This practice is already used by some estates.

Keeper 1! IF you had bothered read my post properly you would have seen that I have worked closely with the keepers on the shoot ON A DAILY BASIS, therefore I do understand what goes on in the daily routine of a keeper. My veiws are based on this, as well as observations at the variouse release pens around the estate and not just the one by the house. Yes! I fly birds but I am a shooting/dogman man first. Yes I know what goes on. You are wrong in your assumption that I am biast towards Raptors. SO! I fly birds that is what a falconer does! I also shoot! I go out on the moor, Partridge and pheasant shoots. I used to pick - up six days a week. I have the upmost respect for the job keepers do. The original post was about the keepers getting stick on the BBC for raptor persecution! I have mearly replied to this thread and now find the there are people out there not willing to talk about it and wrongly perceive it as 'STICK' or A DIG! We are all countrymen! AND we all follow country pursuits, we would do well to work together rather than infighting. Hunting, shooting, fishing and falconry (all country sports)need to stick together. So put your dummy back in and grow up!


and you obviusly didnt read [BANNED TEXT] this was about as ther was no mention of birds of pray in this post. Apart from the fact that you decided to turn it into one? the original postes wer about keepers geting some recognition for the work we carry out on a whole. for you benafit i have coped the the poste so you can read it......how come we are alwase made out to be criminals. people selling crack on street corners get les coverage and hassel. and if they are on tv it leaves you fealing sorry for the poor lost soles!!! how come we never get the recognition for the hard work and time we put in to make the country side what it is. keepers are or should be verry passonate about ther work whitch is more than just a job
mabby the bbc should be educateing the narow minded people who think they no what happens in ther weekend playground. and not the real benifits we bring to the countrside. or maby the bbc should leave us alone and let us do [BANNED TEXT] we do best. just cos u dont eat meat dosnt mean wer c***S. i carn see how that indicates a descution on the persicution of bird of pray???? or maby its just me!! as you state we as countryside sportsmen should say to gether so y bring something into a post that isnt [BANNED TEXT] its about all im saying is it just looks like a good opertunaty for a dig. surly just a few words saying that you reconise the work that is benifical to the country side and its a shame people dont understan would have done. so mutch for sticking together [BANNED TEXT] country men carnt even stop ther self haveing a go eather. brick and wall spring to minde and as for the dummy its fine wer it is thanks


just bin checking incase i miss read an no it was defently you who brought up the bird of pray persicution. dont come on to a post to have a dig thers enughf people out ther doing that. and you talk about sticking to gether?

#28 Lab

Lab

    Wasnt the carling....it was the tennents and the scrumpy.honest

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 11:48 am








OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?
You know fine well it goes on and the reason for this is there is no other way to control problem raptors. No keeper wants to spend all year running about an Estate shooting BOPs, they have enough to do. They would however like an agreed period of time when they are being bombarded with BOPs targeting young poults they could do something about it, this would soon stop any illegal methods of killing BOPs and maybe some folk could get a life and not make it a live long ambition to get people in trouble with the law.
BOPs are not stupid as you say and the pheasant clearly is, majority of them are reared in artificial pens where there are safe from any predator so it does make them an easy target.....i cant understand why some folk would be against a keeper trying his best to look after them, afterall he has a job on the line... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
You've pointed out that you do alot of work on a shoot......i would be really interested in your views how to go around keeping your birds safe from these hungry BOPs....?... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


feals like you area bit biast about birds as you fly them? And seam like you want to dam keepers for the persicution of bird of pray. Just because you have a pen 50 yards from your house dosent mean you know [BANNED TEXT] gose on in a keepers life day to day. at the end of the day buzzards are a problem because of ther protection not ther persicution and as you state it dose go on but to [BANNED TEXT] degree is obviusly not makeing a difrence if ther is stll a problem. As all keepers will say its not ther fact that we want them totaly eradicating just controling the problem they have become. its ok talking about foxes but they can legaly be controled and we still get stick for that. The first post was about keepers geting unfare stick from uneducated people nothing about stik for birds of pray as you have decided to turn it into. the post was about informing people about keepering as a job on a whole. but because you have bird of pray persicution on the brain you atomaticly think you can have a dig well dont bother. maby if ther is an education program at some point you take time out to watch it. I thort out of all the places we would get some respect for the work we do it would be on hear. ha obviusly not http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
Lab-tastic! The answer could be to put extra birds down to compensate for the expected losses. This practice is already used by some estates.

Keeper 1! IF you had bothered read my post properly you would have seen that I have worked closely with the keepers on the shoot ON A DAILY BASIS, therefore I do understand what goes on in the daily routine of a keeper. My veiws are based on this, as well as observations at the variouse release pens around the estate and not just the one by the house. Yes! I fly birds but I am a shooting/dogman man first. Yes I know what goes on. You are wrong in your assumption that I am biast towards Raptors. SO! I fly birds that is what a falconer does! I also shoot! I go out on the moor, Partridge and pheasant shoots. I used to pick - up six days a week. I have the upmost respect for the job keepers do. The original post was about the keepers getting stick on the BBC for raptor persecution! I have mearly replied to this thread and now find the there are people out there not willing to talk about it and wrongly perceive it as 'STICK' or A DIG! We are all countrymen! AND we all follow country pursuits, we would do well to work together rather than infighting. Hunting, shooting, fishing and falconry (all country sports)need to stick together. So put your dummy back in and grow up!
Well you seem to think you know what your talking about but i'm afraid you dont. "put more birds down".....i really have heard it all now.... :wallbash: Do you know the price of birds? Why should people fork out extra money because of a problem bird? So in your theory if a burglar breaks into my house tonight and steals my tv then i should do nothing about it and by 2 tv's just incase he decides to come back.............. :icon_eek:
I dont know what estate you helped out on and what your reason was being there but i have a funny feeling you never seen the real story....... :no:

#29 EskdaleHawks

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 11:20 pm










OK! I haven't seen this program for myself but I have been involved with country sports, mainly shooting/falconry all my life. I have worked on shoots alongside gamekeepers. There is no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution goes on. There are unfortunately a small minority of people or so we're lead to believe, that continue to persecute raptors, and justify it by claiming they take inordinate amounts of game. When you equate what raptors take in a year to that killed by a team of guns on a single grouse/Pheasant/Partridge day then the maths simply do not add up. One would have thought that in this day and age that keepers could live along side raptors and accept that they will only take what they need. The presence of raptors show that the countryside environment is in good shape and that the keepering staff have done their job. Most keepered estates have an abundence of bird/wildlife including raptors and are a joy to be on. The way forward is education, but first we have to accept that this sort of thing does go on. We need to stop feeling threatened by the media and the general public, welcome them and educate them (I know! easier said than done). This is just my humble opinion, having seen first hand, the damage(killing)done by variouse predators both four legged and avian.





To imagine that raptors purely present a problem from the amount of birds they predate shows a crass lack of understanding from a man who has never driven birds as their livelihood,If raptors have such a little impact why are the NGO encouraging applications from keepers to cull buzzards?

It would be better to ask the question as to why there are so many buzzards? The answer could be that they have protected status or there are vast numbers of surplus artificially reared game birds present in the countryside. Road kill and easy pickings.
As to having a crass lack of understanding,Then please educate me! I have spent many years Living in the middle of a pheasant wood with the release pen not fifty yards from the house, being part of the daily routine,catching up, egg collection ,washing and setting, hatching, rearing, relesing feeding, beating , picking up, sorting the birds for the guns and game dealer on the shoot before I started flying birds. I do understand the problems raptors and other predators cause but I think it is foolish to deny that raptor persecution does not go on!

Lab-tastic, you say my humble opinion is wrong, please say why?
If I remember rightly back in the 80's - mid 90's there were reports in the shooting times of commercial shoots actually burying vast amounts of shot game because there wasn't a market for it. In my humble opinion this was bang out of order. I suppose I am wrong about that as well?


I would imagine the decrease in keepers/banning of certain poisons and the protection of buzzards has increased the numbers rather than an increase in the amount of prey animals available.
As a third generation keeper with over 20 years full time experience I am more than happy to attempt to educate people on how raptors become a problem far beyond the actual birds they predate, firstly have you ever entered a pen immediately after a kill the other birds in the pen are obviously disturbed and will have sought cover during this time they neither feed nor drink now take that to the point where an adult is feeding chicks and then training the chicks to hunt the repeated harassment on the poults has a dramatic affect on their well being and stress levels to the point where a marked reduction in their growth and an increased incidence of disease is noted between pens so predated and those which aren't.
Next we take partridge,once placed in their release pens they can be continually harassed by BOP resulting in poult mortality through their tendency to flush into both the pen sides and the net, after release the Bop start to predate the partridge and because of their nature the rest of the covey then flushes from the cover,once a BOP has established a "killing ground" it will continue to harry those birds even spending protracted periods of the day cruising the area which again stops the birds eating and drinking and eventually the poults abandon the cover,If after all this you manage to keep the birds in the cover when you come to drive them on numerous occasions I have had buzzards swoop at the coveys as they are being driven to the guns resulting in flushes which are uncontrolled and of little use to the guns assuming they actually flush in the correct direction anyway.

I don't want to see an uncontrolled cull of BOP but some sense has to prevail and the idea of regulated culls in problem areas must be considered http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
As you can see I have highlighted your first sentence. Are you therefore admitting that 'persecution' goes on? The use of poisons is both indescriminate and irrisponsable.
Yes I have been in a pen just after buzzards have attacked poults and yes I have seen what you descibe. But you cannot blame the buzzard for making use of an artifficially man made oppertunity. I have also seen buzzards doing exactly what you describe with the partridges. Buzzards are particulrly partial to these little birds. They also mop up all those birds that the pickers up miss or that go away carrying shot and are not in peak condition afterwards. I do not apose culling if it is carried out in a proper and legal manner. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin. I shoot and I am active on shoots in the winter, I also fly hawks and falcons. I have a balanced view in that I understand what goes on and why there are calls for a cull in certain areas. I do not agree with the indisciminate shooting and poisoning of raptors. This only serves to do the keepering fraternity more harm than good. Do you agree?
You know fine well it goes on and the reason for this is there is no other way to control problem raptors. No keeper wants to spend all year running about an Estate shooting BOPs, they have enough to do. They would however like an agreed period of time when they are being bombarded with BOPs targeting young poults they could do something about it, this would soon stop any illegal methods of killing BOPs and maybe some folk could get a life and not make it a live long ambition to get people in trouble with the law.
BOPs are not stupid as you say and the pheasant clearly is, majority of them are reared in artificial pens where there are safe from any predator so it does make them an easy target.....i cant understand why some folk would be against a keeper trying his best to look after them, afterall he has a job on the line... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
You've pointed out that you do alot of work on a shoot......i would be really interested in your views how to go around keeping your birds safe from these hungry BOPs....?... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


feals like you area bit biast about birds as you fly them? And seam like you want to dam keepers for the persicution of bird of pray. Just because you have a pen 50 yards from your house dosent mean you know [BANNED TEXT] gose on in a keepers life day to day. at the end of the day buzzards are a problem because of ther protection not ther persicution and as you state it dose go on but to [BANNED TEXT] degree is obviusly not makeing a difrence if ther is stll a problem. As all keepers will say its not ther fact that we want them totaly eradicating just controling the problem they have become. its ok talking about foxes but they can legaly be controled and we still get stick for that. The first post was about keepers geting unfare stick from uneducated people nothing about stik for birds of pray as you have decided to turn it into. the post was about informing people about keepering as a job on a whole. but because you have bird of pray persicution on the brain you atomaticly think you can have a dig well dont bother. maby if ther is an education program at some point you take time out to watch it. I thort out of all the places we would get some respect for the work we do it would be on hear. ha obviusly not http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...
Lab-tastic! The answer could be to put extra birds down to compensate for the expected losses. This practice is already used by some estates.

Keeper 1! IF you had bothered read my post properly you would have seen that I have worked closely with the keepers on the shoot ON A DAILY BASIS, therefore I do understand what goes on in the daily routine of a keeper. My veiws are based on this, as well as observations at the variouse release pens around the estate and not just the one by the house. Yes! I fly birds but I am a shooting/dogman man first. Yes I know what goes on. You are wrong in your assumption that I am biast towards Raptors. SO! I fly birds that is what a falconer does! I also shoot! I go out on the moor, Partridge and pheasant shoots. I used to pick - up six days a week. I have the upmost respect for the job keepers do. The original post was about the keepers getting stick on the BBC for raptor persecution! I have mearly replied to this thread and now find the there are people out there not willing to talk about it and wrongly perceive it as 'STICK' or A DIG! We are all countrymen! AND we all follow country pursuits, we would do well to work together rather than infighting. Hunting, shooting, fishing and falconry (all country sports)need to stick together. So put your dummy back in and grow up!


and you obviusly didnt read [BANNED TEXT] this was about as ther was no mention of birds of pray in this post. Apart from the fact that you decided to turn it into one? the original postes wer about keepers geting some recognition for the work we carry out on a whole. for you benafit i have coped the the poste so you can read it......how come we are alwase made out to be criminals. people selling crack on street corners get les coverage and hassel. and if they are on tv it leaves you fealing sorry for the poor lost soles!!! how come we never get the recognition for the hard work and time we put in to make the country side what it is. keepers are or should be verry passonate about ther work whitch is more than just a job
mabby the bbc should be educateing the narow minded people who think they no what happens in ther weekend playground. and not the real benifits we bring to the countrside. or maby the bbc should leave us alone and let us do [BANNED TEXT] we do best. just cos u dont eat meat dosnt mean wer c***S. i carn see how that indicates a descution on the persicution of bird of pray???? or maby its just me!! as you state we as countryside sportsmen should say to gether so y bring something into a post that isnt [BANNED TEXT] its about all im saying is it just looks like a good opertunaty for a dig. surly just a few words saying that you reconise the work that is benifical to the country side and its a shame people dont understan would have done. so mutch for sticking together [BANNED TEXT] country men carnt even stop ther self haveing a go eather. brick and wall spring to minde and as for the dummy its fine wer it is thanks


just bin checking incase i miss read an no it was defently you who brought up the bird of pray persicution. dont come on to a post to have a dig thers enughf people out ther doing that. and you talk about sticking to gether?

KEEPER 1
IF you check back you will see the original post was asking if anyone had seen the program? Danw posted the link to the program. It was there where it said about the raptor persecution and that keepers were getting the blame. I just picked up on that. But everyone apart from danw refused to talk about because they think it was a 'dig' at them. Well sorry but the truth hurts. Once again I say that I have the upmost respect for the work keepers do. If you feel that anything I have said on here is a 'dig' that is your opinion. AND who said I don't eat meat? Like I say I still shoot and for your information I also gut, skin, prepare, cook and eat what I shoot. The countryside ISN't my weekend playground either, I live here all year round. Well keepered estates I as I have already said, abound with wild life and the presence of raptors shows that the environment is in good shape. As for the media giving you a hard time, blame the people who shoot, poison or trap raptors illegally and leave them for members of the public to find or do not shoot them cleanly or retrieve the carcase for disposal. It is these people that you yourselves should be seeking out, and ousting to bring keepereing into the 21st century instead of keeping them hidden amonst the ranks and bringing your proffession into disrepute.

LAB-TASTIC
The birds arn't yours they are your bosses! Why should you act illegally to 'protect' your bosses assets? Maybe because 'it's expected'? The BOP arn't burglars they are just doing what comes naturally. And most of the time they will only take poults upto a certain size and usually leave them alone once the poults have left the pen. And my reason for being on the estate was the it was my home! and I was there for 18 very happy years, knew every inch of it and I saw 3 keepers out!!! SO! Yes I have seen the 'real story' as you put it!

Edited by EskdaleHawks, 02 June 2011 - 11:22 pm.


#30 Lab

Lab

    Wasnt the carling....it was the tennents and the scrumpy.honest

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:58 am

LAB-TASTIC
The birds arn't yours they are your bosses! Why should you act illegally to 'protect' your bosses assets? Maybe because 'it's expected'? The BOP arn't burglars they are just doing what comes naturally. And most of the time they will only take poults upto a certain size and usually leave them alone once the poults have left the pen. And my reason for being on the estate was the it was my home! and I was there for 18 very happy years, knew every inch of it and I saw 3 keepers out!!! SO! Yes I have seen the 'real story' as you put it!
[/quote]
Sorry buts theres plenty people like myself uesd too rent ground for shooting and leased out commercial days so believe me they the birds belonged to me, i also run a game farm so i never recieved these birds at 6/7 weeks...i picked the egg, hatched the birds in incubators and reared them up so sorry if you think i'm out of order when they are killed the minute they are realesaed into the woods. As for keepers on estates then acting illegally isnt this the whole point, they are forced to do so.....not by the landowner but by the fact of fear of losing there job if numbers dont add up at the end of the season....and please dont try and tell me that wont happen..... :no:
Again i think you are showing your inexperience.............depending on what BOP's you have in your area 6/7 week old poults will be targeted by most BOP's........the sparrowhawk usually gives up i'd say around the 12/13 week old stage but the Buzzard will continue on until fully grown. Goshawk will take birds all season round too. They also once they start killing return daily, sometimes taking more than they need for training for there young.
The whole fact of the matter is there should be a cull period where you can look after your birds without being prosecuted, if people then took matters into there own hands outside of this cull period then they can have no gripes with legal action.


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