working dogs diet

[Born Hunter 17,622]

Sandy, no doubt there are plenty of fallacies going around about raw food BASED diets, some of which come out on these raw vs biscuit threads.

 

However, putting aside the science and theories, lets look at the general opinion and facts.

 

I knw you dont strictly disagree with raw but you are very forthcoming with all the 'possible' dangers of a 100% raw diet and also pick up on absolutely any even slightly factualy wrong statement made by someone trying to endorse the benefits of a raw canine diet. But, surely the fact that the vast majority of people that have actually tried both raw and biscuit explicitly state seeing a significant improvement in their dogs health and physical ability when changing to a raw diet speaks for itself! Regardless of whether or not that 'raw' diet may have table scraps added to it or brown bread or a bit of fecking pasta. I even know of dogs kept together in exactly the same house, one fed raw, one fed a complete biscuit, similar breeding and their health and condition differs drastically!

 

The fact is the huge majority of dogs fed on a raw based diet are a damn sight healthier than dogs fed on a complete diet out of a bag! And no, I havnt got any fecking statistics to bore you with or a scientific paper (that quite frankly dont prove a thing as they always 'prove' what ever money bags behind the research wanted it to), this is just educated opinion based on a little experience.

 

There are decent enough bicuits in bags out there but if you really want the very best for your dogs, it wont come out of a bag and smell like manky bread!

[sandymere 8,260]

Influence of Feeding Raw or Extruded Feline Diets on Nutrient Digestibility and Nitrogen Metabolism of African Wildcats (Felis lybica)Detail Only Available

Vester, BM; Burke, SL; Liu, KJ; Dikeman, CL; Simmons, LG; Swanson, KS. ZOO BIOLOGY; NOV-DEC, 2010; 29; 6; p676-p686

 

The above states that in RAW feeding protein digestibility is much higher, faecal matter is lessened and contains far less nitrogen (good for your lawn) than feeding kibble.

 

Perceptions, practices, and consequences associated with foodborne pathogens and the feeding of raw meat to dogsDetail Only Available

Lenz, J; Joffe, D; Kauffman, M; Zhang, YF; LeJeune, J. CANADIAN VETERINARY JOURNAL-REVUE VETERINAIRE CANADIENNE; JUN, 2009; 50; 6; p637-p643

 

States that dog poop might have a few more germs when feeding raw and eating dog poo or eating with poo on your hands might make you ill.

 

It’s nice you have had a go with Google but alas the idea is that you find evidence to back up your claims not undermine them.

The paper you quote, Influence of Feeding Raw or Extruded Feline Diets on Nutrient Digestibility and Nitrogen Metabolism of African Wildcats (Felis lybica), actually concludes and I quote “Owing to lack of differences, these data indicate that African wildcats can readily utilize a high protein extruded kibble diet, and may be able to replace a commercial raw meat diet.†Personally as a cat is a true carnivore ie obligate, then a complete would need to have virtually no carbohydrate if there was not going to be a longer term risk of diabetes but that’s due to the differences between an obligate such as a cat and a non obligate like a dog.

Your second paper does not say “that dog poop might have a few more germs when feeding raw and eating dog poo or eating with poo on your hands might make you ill.†as you state. From that statement I can only surmise either you didn’t read the paper or are not to bright. What it actually says is dogs fed raw food had a higher incidence of bacterial infection which again is hardly supportive of your view, but more importantly and I quote “Although dogs frequently display no clinical signs of illness when colonized with bacterial organisms that cause human disease, excretion of these agents in their feces may pose a zoonotic health threat. In the US, 3% of all salmonellosis cases and as many as 15% of Campylobacter spp. infections may be attributable to contact with companion animals†and goes on “petting animals and handling contaminated objects can readily transfer pathogens from the pet’s fur or the object to the owners’ hands (38). Possibly more importantly, as evidenced by findings in previous reports (39–41) and this study, the home environment can be an indirect source of contamination.†And then “Most infant salmonellosis cases are acquired not from food, but from household environmental sourcesâ€.

This paper evidences why I avoid feeding pet quality meat and stick to human quality of rabbit etc, after all why give a dog a high bacterial load if you don’t need to?

So in conclusion you believe that lurcher can be worked to the point of exhaustion night after night and you are unable to take meaning from simple papers about the subject of digestion, Lordy! In future before you start having a go at others you might bare in mind the adage, Those who live in glass houses should masturbate in the basement - Dara O'briain

For those wondering about my use of “Lordy†well its simple really, there are many who are not really bright enough to contribute to the discussion so I use this term so they have something they can comment on and not feel left out.

[sandymere 8,260]

lORDY!

Edited April 20, 2011 by sandymere

[sandymere 8,260]

Sandy, no doubt there are plenty of fallacies going around about raw food BASED diets, some of which come out on these raw vs biscuit threads.

 

However, putting aside the science and theories, lets look at the general opinion and facts.

 

I knw you dont strictly disagree with raw but you are very forthcoming with all the 'possible' dangers of a 100% raw diet and also pick up on absolutely any even slightly factualy wrong statement made by someone trying to endorse the benefits of a raw canine diet. But, surely the fact that the vast majority of people that have actually tried both raw and biscuit explicitly state seeing a significant improvement in their dogs health and physical ability when changing to a raw diet speaks for itself! Regardless of whether or not that 'raw' diet may have table scraps added to it or brown bread or a bit of fecking pasta. I even know of dogs kept together in exactly the same house, one fed raw, one fed a complete biscuit, similar breeding and their health and condition differs drastically!

 

The fact is the huge majority of dogs fed on a raw based diet are a damn sight healthier than dogs fed on a complete diet out of a bag! And no, I havnt got any fecking statistics to bore you with or a scientific paper (that quite frankly dont prove a thing as they always 'prove' what ever money bags behind the research wanted it to), this is just educated opinion based on a little experience.

 

There are decent enough bicuits in bags out there but if you really want the very best for your dogs, it wont come out of a bag and smell like manky bread!

 

Actually most that claim to feed a raw based diet actually feed a varied diet including cereals and to my mind take a sensible route, the evidence supports that route as do I, of course that is completely against the RAW or Barf idea but they were silly ideas anyway. Secondly many are now going back to a varied diet, often including completes, and are reporting that their dogs do not drop condition, I have three at the moment fed a balanced diet with complete as part of that and the are very well. So I to can give antidotal evidence but I also look to back that up with a little science and sorry but the idea that all science is false is a little farcical.

By the way I don’t “pick up on absolutely any even slightly factualy wrong statement†just the bloody stupid ones, especially when people start having a nasty go at people just putting their view across.

Balance not bigotry.

[rob190364 2,593]

Influence of Feeding Raw or Extruded Feline Diets on Nutrient Digestibility and Nitrogen Metabolism of African Wildcats (Felis lybica)Detail Only Available

Vester, BM; Burke, SL; Liu, KJ; Dikeman, CL; Simmons, LG; Swanson, KS. ZOO BIOLOGY; NOV-DEC, 2010; 29; 6; p676-p686

 

The above states that in RAW feeding protein digestibility is much higher, faecal matter is lessened and contains far less nitrogen (good for your lawn) than feeding kibble.

 

Perceptions, practices, and consequences associated with foodborne pathogens and the feeding of raw meat to dogsDetail Only Available

Lenz, J; Joffe, D; Kauffman, M; Zhang, YF; LeJeune, J. CANADIAN VETERINARY JOURNAL-REVUE VETERINAIRE CANADIENNE; JUN, 2009; 50; 6; p637-p643

 

States that dog poop might have a few more germs when feeding raw and eating dog poo or eating with poo on your hands might make you ill.

 

It’s nice you have had a go with Google but alas the idea is that you find evidence to back up your claims not undermine them.

The paper you quote, Influence of Feeding Raw or Extruded Feline Diets on Nutrient Digestibility and Nitrogen Metabolism of African Wildcats (Felis lybica), actually concludes and I quote “Owing to lack of differences, these data indicate that African wildcats can readily utilize a high protein extruded kibble diet, and may be able to replace a commercial raw meat diet.†Personally as a cat is a true carnivore ie obligate, then a complete would need to have virtually no carbohydrate if there was not going to be a longer term risk of diabetes but that’s due to the differences between an obligate such as a cat and a non obligate like a dog.

Your second paper does not say “that dog poop might have a few more germs when feeding raw and eating dog poo or eating with poo on your hands might make you ill.†as you state. From that statement I can only surmise either you didn’t read the paper or are not to bright. What it actually says is dogs fed raw food had a higher incidence of bacterial infection which again is hardly supportive of your view, but more importantly and I quote “Although dogs frequently display no clinical signs of illness when colonized with bacterial organisms that cause human disease, excretion of these agents in their feces may pose a zoonotic health threat. In the US, 3% of all salmonellosis cases and as many as 15% of Campylobacter spp. infections may be attributable to contact with companion animals†and goes on “petting animals and handling contaminated objects can readily transfer pathogens from the pet’s fur or the object to the owners’ hands (38). Possibly more importantly, as evidenced by findings in previous reports (39–41) and this study, the home environment can be an indirect source of contamination.†And then “Most infant salmonellosis cases are acquired not from food, but from household environmental sourcesâ€.This paper evidences why I avoid feeding pet quality meat and stick to human quality of rabbit etc, after all why give a dog a high bacterial load if you don’t need to?

So in conclusion you believe that lurcher can be worked to the point of exhaustion night after night and you are unable to take meaning from simple papers about the subject of digestion, Lordy! In future before you start having a go at others you might bare in mind the adage, Those who live in glass houses should masturbate in the basement - Dara O'briain

For those wondering about my use of “Lordy†well its simple really, there are many who are not really bright enough to contribute to the discussion so I use this term so they have something they can comment on and not feel left out.

Oh Lordy, I bet you're a blast on a night out!

[sandymere 8,260]

LORDY!!!

Edited April 20, 2011 by sandymere

[Born Hunter 17,622]

Im not getting into an argument over this. I never said all science is false, that would be a bit warped of me. I said Im not interested in the science in this case, because I couldnt trust it. All too often money gets in the way of real science and as such the agendas of those holding the money. My simple point was, a raw based diet vs a complete biscuit is no argument as those that have tried both know what works best and in my experience its never the shit that comes in a bag.

[sandymere 8,260]

Influence of Feeding Raw or Extruded Feline Diets on Nutrient Digestibility and Nitrogen Metabolism of African Wildcats (Felis lybica)Detail Only Available

Vester, BM; Burke, SL; Liu, KJ; Dikeman, CL; Simmons, LG; Swanson, KS. ZOO BIOLOGY; NOV-DEC, 2010; 29; 6; p676-p686

 

The above states that in RAW feeding protein digestibility is much higher, faecal matter is lessened and contains far less nitrogen (good for your lawn) than feeding kibble.

 

Perceptions, practices, and consequences associated with foodborne pathogens and the feeding of raw meat to dogsDetail Only Available

Lenz, J; Joffe, D; Kauffman, M; Zhang, YF; LeJeune, J. CANADIAN VETERINARY JOURNAL-REVUE VETERINAIRE CANADIENNE; JUN, 2009; 50; 6; p637-p643

 

States that dog poop might have a few more germs when feeding raw and eating dog poo or eating with poo on your hands might make you ill.

 

It’s nice you have had a go with Google but alas the idea is that you find evidence to back up your claims not undermine them.

The paper you quote, Influence of Feeding Raw or Extruded Feline Diets on Nutrient Digestibility and Nitrogen Metabolism of African Wildcats (Felis lybica), actually concludes and I quote “Owing to lack of differences, these data indicate that African wildcats can readily utilize a high protein extruded kibble diet, and may be able to replace a commercial raw meat diet.†Personally as a cat is a true carnivore ie obligate, then a complete would need to have virtually no carbohydrate if there was not going to be a longer term risk of diabetes but that’s due to the differences between an obligate such as a cat and a non obligate like a dog.

Your second paper does not say “that dog poop might have a few more germs when feeding raw and eating dog poo or eating with poo on your hands might make you ill.†as you state. From that statement I can only surmise either you didn’t read the paper or are not to bright. What it actually says is dogs fed raw food had a higher incidence of bacterial infection which again is hardly supportive of your view, but more importantly and I quote “Although dogs frequently display no clinical signs of illness when colonized with bacterial organisms that cause human disease, excretion of these agents in their feces may pose a zoonotic health threat. In the US, 3% of all salmonellosis cases and as many as 15% of Campylobacter spp. infections may be attributable to contact with companion animals†and goes on “petting animals and handling contaminated objects can readily transfer pathogens from the pet’s fur or the object to the owners’ hands (38). Possibly more importantly, as evidenced by findings in previous reports (39–41) and this study, the home environment can be an indirect source of contamination.†And then “Most infant salmonellosis cases are acquired not from food, but from household environmental sourcesâ€.This paper evidences why I avoid feeding pet quality meat and stick to human quality of rabbit etc, after all why give a dog a high bacterial load if you don’t need to?

So in conclusion you believe that lurcher can be worked to the point of exhaustion night after night and you are unable to take meaning from simple papers about the subject of digestion, Lordy! In future before you start having a go at others you might bare in mind the adage, Those who live in glass houses should masturbate in the basement - Dara O'briain

For those wondering about my use of “Lordy†well its simple really, there are many who are not really bright enough to contribute to the discussion so I use this term so they have something they can comment on and not feel left out.

Oh Lordy, I bet you're a blast on a night out!

 

Just wanterd you to feel included lol.

[sandymere 8,260]

Im not getting into an argument over this. I never said all science is false, that would be a bit warped of me. I said Im not interested in the science in this case, because I couldnt trust it. All too often money gets in the way of real science and as such the agendas of those holding the money. My simple point was, a raw based diet vs a complete biscuit is no argument as those that have tried both know what works best and in my experience its never the shit that comes in a bag.

Dogs do best when fed a diet that includes the right amount of protein, fat and carbohydrate to meet their individual metabolic requirement, raw meat alone does not do that likewise many completes will also fail to do so. Some raw diets will overload the dogs system with bacteria which just adds another stressor, hence my rejection of pets minces etc. Basically it is a balance so the idea that raw is the answer doesn’t add up, that’s not biased science just basic text book science. Balance and inclusion not bigotry and exclusion. If you feed what you believe to be “shit that comes in a bag†and then something that you believe in then of course you will see a difference, its called belief and placebo not reality.

Ps in truth I like baiting Barfist, alas the quality is very poor at the moment, seriously I could pull some of my own augments apart with very little effort but the present RAW only advocates seem to be having trouble pulling on their socks in the morning.

Could do better.

[Born Hunter 17,622]

Im not getting into an argument over this. I never said all science is false, that would be a bit warped of me. I said Im not interested in the science in this case, because I couldnt trust it. All too often money gets in the way of real science and as such the agendas of those holding the money. My simple point was, a raw based diet vs a complete biscuit is no argument as those that have tried both know what works best and in my experience its never the shit that comes in a bag.

Dogs do best when fed a diet that includes the right amount of protein, fat and carbohydrate to meet their individual metabolic requirement, raw meat alone does not do that likewise many completes will also fail to do so. Some raw diets will overload the dogs system with bacteria which just adds another stressor, hence my rejection of pets minces etc. Basically it is a balance so the idea that raw is the answer doesn’t add up, that’s not biased science just basic text book science. Balance and inclusion not bigotry and exclusion. If you feed what you believe to be “shit that comes in a bag” and then something that you believe in then of course you will see a difference, its called belief and placebo not reality.

Ps in truth I like baiting Barfist, alas the quality is very poor at the moment, seriously I could pull some of my own augments apart with very little effort but the present RAW only advocates seem to be having trouble pulling on their socks in the morning.

Could do better.

 

Good job im not a 'barfist' then

 

Of course raw meat alone doesnt do a dog any good. But raw meat alone doesnt make a balanced raw diet now does it? Like I said, my opinion is based on my experience and that of those around me, not scientific 'evidence'. Its an argument that will never be won. But then I couldnt give a shite about winning it, ill do what I feel is best for my dogs. I just cant believe anyone believes giving a dog a bowl of biscuit a day is better than a bowl of varied raw a day as when you look at dogs fed on the best of either the difference is clear. As for bacterial stresses on the body, I cant comment because I have never seen that problem, to me it just sounds like something the anti raw brigade use when in actual fact it really has a negligeable affect.

 

And for the record, I feed the odd bowl of biscuit when needs must. But its not common and I still believe its shite in bag but keeps the dogs right untill something better is sorted. I think macdonalds and sarnies in a packet are shit but I still eat them now and again when I cant get decent food. Once in a while doesnt do any harm.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Born Hunter

[rob190364 2,593]

I can't give mine biscuits at all, ever. With her only ever eating raw fresh meat and veg if I gave her biscuits she's more than likely be ill and would probably shit all over the house.

 

Never get stuck for meat cos Tesco is open pretty much all the time.

[Born Hunter 17,622]

I can't give mine biscuits at all, ever. With her only ever eating raw fresh meat and veg if I gave her biscuits she's more than likely be ill and would probably shit all over the house.

 

Never get stuck for meat cos Tesco is open pretty much all the time.

 

Ill be damned if im driving to town to get a packet of wings when I find myself short of meat on that particular day! lol. Im not a hard core raw feeder like that, but it is what I feed, other than the odd day im caught short.

[rob190364 2,593]

I can't give mine biscuits at all, ever. With her only ever eating raw fresh meat and veg if I gave her biscuits she's more than likely be ill and would probably shit all over the house.

 

Never get stuck for meat cos Tesco is open pretty much all the time.

 

Ill be damned if im driving to town to get a packet of wings when I find myself short of meat on that particular day! lol. Im not a hard core raw feeder like that, but it is what I feed, other than the odd day im caught short.

I keep a couple of tins of tuna in just in case I do get caught out, either that or a couple of raw eggs....usually have to leave a window open after the raw egss tho :sick:

[Blue one 89]

All this ''your dog shits more with complete'', is silly i think.

I feed whole rabbits sometimes, as part of my dogs diet, have you seen the ammount they crap????

I personally feed a good brand of greyhound food and good quality raw meat, rabbits, venison ect and human grade meat, they seem to do great on it with no probs what so ever.

[rob190364 2,593]

All this ''your dog shits more with complete'', is silly i think.

I feed whole rabbits sometimes, as part of my dogs diet, have you seen the ammount they crap????

I personally feed a good brand of greyhound food and good quality raw meat, rabbits, venison ect and human grade meat, they seem to do great on it with no probs what so ever.

Not sure what you're saying! seen how much what craps? rabbits???

 

If your dog craps a lot it's probably the greyhound food?

 

Mine definitely 100% craps less when eating raw than dried food, and I mean a lot less.