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Retained Energy


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#16 pianoman

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:19 pm

Simple! The pellet's going faster right? Thus it reaches the rabbit's bonce a lot sooner and hits harder with more shock wave, ergo it hits rabbit brain with less chance of animal moving and thus ensures a faster, cleaner kill with less chance of wounding caused by an animal moving off before the round hits home.

FAC air is not about shooting at longer ranges. It's about shooting at sensible range and using the greater velocity for getting the pellet to the target faster than it can react and begin to move, over the same ranges as you'd shoot with a sub 12ft/lb rifle.

Does that clear up your confusion Redial? Good NOW STOP SHOUTING IN CAPITALS I'm neither blind or deaf dear!

#17 redial

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:30 pm

Thank You ,Ive got it didnt know capitals represented shouting as you can see or read I have stopped this bad practise. Yours in sport. Redial

#18 pianoman

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:38 pm

Your welcome pal :thumbs:

#19 davyt63

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:57 pm

hi lads
a very interesting thread this!
Matt when Si comes over in a few weeks ,we can all meet up and put this to the test.meet me at mine Matt you know where i am,and we will take it from there!i will get back to you with some dates :thumbs:

regards

davy

#20 davyt63

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 03:03 pm

Just been playing with chairgun pro and noticed that .22 calibre retains a lot more of its muzzle energy over distances than the .177,obviously this can be an advantage when hunting vermin.
No dought there is pro's and cons with both calibres and everybody has there own preferences and reasons for choosing a particular calibre.



hi buddy
i cant see it being an advantage my self,neither will the bunny be bothered :thumbs:
its not going to waiting for a .22 to hit rather than a .177 as long as you hit the kill zone with both cals dose it "REALLY" matter?

i shoot .22 & .177 as do other members,and i get the same results :thumbs: with both cals.

regards

Davy

#21 rossy08

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 03:09 pm

i'm with davy on this one.

i hunt with both cal's and get the same results, pellet in the right place=dead bunny

Andy

#22 Squirrel Shooter

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 03:50 pm




The difference in frontal area between a .177 and a .22 is just under one square millimeter (i.e. bugger all) so the percieved greater margin for error is pretty much illusory too.

Matt dear fellow.

No. Post withdrawn, This is too dumb to argue with.

You know better than this Matt.
Yeah, I agreed mostly with your first post Matt, but that's a big maths fail there... :no:

#23 matt_hooks

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 03:56 pm





The difference in frontal area between a .177 and a .22 is just under one square millimeter (i.e. bugger all) so the percieved greater margin for error is pretty much illusory too.

Matt dear fellow.

No. Post withdrawn, This is too dumb to argue with.

You know better than this Matt.
Yeah, I agreed mostly with your first post Matt, but that's a big maths fail there... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

I dunno, degree in engineering, and I manage to get my calc out by one decimal place! That's what you get for trying to do squares in your head!

#24 zini

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 06:46 pm

Matt,

I think when I say that’s pellets deform and the skirts / heads change shape etc people and yourself get the impression that I mean that they flatten like a pancake or look like they do when they impact on a brick wall or metal plate.

I don’t mean that at all and I know that a rabbit’s skull isn’t as hard as a wall or a metal plate mate. I haven’t got a degree in engineering but I do know that.

I meant changing from the shape that they were before exiting the barrel and hitting the skull of the rabbit.

The pellet will expand slightly on impact and as it passes through layers of bone and tissue. Depending on the shape of the pellet and design this happens in some pellets more than others and softer lead also plays a part in this effect, especially the pellets with the thin soft skirts (Falcon Accuracy Plus pellets).

The forward momentum of a pellet along with its density determines the amount of kinetic energy that it departs.

True facts here mate.

The below data is true from Chair Gun Pro

Pellet = 22 Air Arms Field
BC = 0.0320
Velocity at the muzzle = 576 fps = 11.72 ft/lbs = energy retained 100%

Rabbit (skull) = 40 metres away

Velocity at 40 metres on impact = 492 fps = 8.5 ft/lbs = energy retained 73.2%

Pellet = 177 Air Arms Field
BC = 0.0210 (Same pellet but with a lower BC)
Velocity at the muzzle = 791 fps = 11.72 ft/lbs = energy retained 100%

Rabbit (skull) = 40 metres away

Velocity at 40 metres on impact = 624 fps = 7.2 ft/lbs = energy retained 62.1%

Results.

22 calibre Air Arms Field pellet retains 11.1% more energy than the same pellet in .177.

Now if those pellets were fired at that rabbit and both hit cleanly in the skull but didn’t exit in any of the calibres due to the range of 40 metres, what pellet actually strikes with more energy and larger surface area?

The .22

Obviously I know that both calibres would kill the rabbit as it’s the placement of either pellet at 7 and 8 ft / lbs in the KZ that kills it cleanly in this case, but what if the rabbit lunged forward and the shots impacted in the rabbits rib area?

Which pellet now looking at the results would do more injury, the small fast but not really hard hitting pellet or the slower, larger and harder hitting pellet?

I don’t want to start a argument here but it’s simple in my eyes mate.

Here is a clip that I found of pellets deforming when not passing through objects fully.

A leather glove isn’t a metal plate or a brick wall and I know its not a rabbits skull but hopefully people see what I mean now when I say expand and deform.

I probably havent been shooting as long as most of the regs on this forum and i havent got the same skill as some of them but i do know quite a bit about shooting, ballistics and the effects of ammo on quarry.

ATB

Si


Edited by zini, 01 March 2011 - 07:01 pm.


#25 rossi_j

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:12 pm

Me and steve have infact dug a pellet out of a rabbits scull, .177 aa diablo, it looked like the skirt had gatherd up a bit and caught up with the domed end on impact, the domed end was noticably flattend off in an uneaven fasion, we were both examining it in steves sink at 4am one morning after lamping :laugh:

If a .22 and a .177 hit a kz at 11ftlb and do not pass through then shurely both transfer the same energy?!



It makes no difference to me as I hit brain time after time as im sure many of us do :laugh: :laugh:
Edited to say thats suposed to be jokey but sounds cocky lol
.atb. .ste.

Edited by rossi_j, 01 March 2011 - 07:21 pm.


#26 zini

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:22 pm

Exactly Ste buddy :thumbs: they do deform and expand slightly :yes: , that’s correct and I am happy that you backed me up pal, thanks :thumbs: .

Yes I agree pal 100% a 177 or a 22 in the KZ = death every time :yes: .

ATB

Si

#27 hunter1989

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:47 pm

hi lads

yep me and ste dug one out and it looked deformed,

when the pellet leaves and connects with the quarry its never going to stay completely the ways it was before fired.

but lads .177 all the way :tongue2:

DEBATE WARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :gunsmilie:


p.s ste this friday same time rugby club its all sorted now

#28 rossi_j

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:52 pm

Just an independant fact, I did state it was an aa because I bet a bis mag would have looked like it was fresh out the pack after going through two rabbits :laugh: :laugh:

Im not all that with the tecnical jibba jabba (as im sure you guys know) my experiance has come largely from my own observations sutch as this :thumbs:

.atb. .ste.

#29 davyt63

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:58 pm

hi every one
i have also witnessed a slight deformed shape to my pellets,once they have been extracted from its quarry!
i have a photo to prove it as well,hang on a sec! i will find it!

impact!!

Posted Image

Posted Image

in this pic,impact to the head

Posted Image


in this pic,you can just about make out the pellet

Posted Image
in the pic above ,you can see it in the middle,its defo deformed! :thumbs:
hope this helps

regards

Davy
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#30 zini

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 08:07 pm

True Ste as the Magnum is a harder and heavier design.

Me and Phantom took some .177 Magnum pellets out a tree at Christmas in Germany and they had only deformed a slight bit.

Si


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