Retained Energy

[zini 1,939]

Oh my God

 

LOL

 

I can't even be bothered to carry on with trying to explain.

 

Thanks for the input Barry and welcome to the forum buddy.

 

ATB

 

Si

[rossi_j 99]

Oh my God LOLI can't even be bothered to carry on with trying to explain.Thanks for the input Barry and welcome to the forum buddy.ATBSi

 

Come on si, please go on!

We could make another 10 pages out of it yet

 

Making a good read this is

 

.atb. .ste.

[pest hunter 151 15]

Was a good read lads Was edited to say the question is that although a .177 with retain less energy it still has a higher penitration. So for rabbits there are cases of rabbits only being knocked out with a .22 but killed with .177 I am talking long distances i would not shoot at like yard! So killing range comes down to placement and energy retaind to penitration. (sorry about spelling)

Edited March 6, 2011 by pest hunter 151

[matt_hooks 188]

Pest, penetration isn't just a function of calibre. A pointed .22 will penetrate better than a "wadcutter" .177. Of course penetration isn't the be-all and end-all. Some complain that the .177 penetrates too far at short ranges. It's another one of those factors which can be a boon or a pitfall, depending on your point of view.

[zini 1,939]

@ Matt

 

Si

[barrywhite 282]

I had a problem with over penitration once I killed two rabbits with one shot .177 defiant

[ian118118 10]

I had a problem with over penitration once I killed two rabbits with one shot .177 defiant

wish i had problems like killing 2 rabbits when aiming for just one

 

atb

ian

[zini 1,939]

My problem is i sometimes kill no rabbits with 10 shots

 

Now thats a real problem

 

ATB

 

Si

[Karpman 44]

I have a over penetration problem, Don't make my eyes water though!

 

 

Sorry skulking off now.

 

Karpman

 

P.s still not overly sure about my .177 though for that exact reason over penetration, From what I have witnessed and experienced is a little more after death/pre death movement even on fairly well placed shots.

 

On birds anyhow, No trouble on the two squizzers shot yet and letting the rabbits alone for the moment.

[pest hunter 151 15]

I have a over penetration problem, Don't make my eyes water though!

 

 

Sorry skulking off now.

 

Karpman

 

P.s still not overly sure about my .177 though for that exact reason over penetration, From what I have witnessed and experienced is a little more after death/pre death movement even on fairly well placed shots.

 

On birds anyhow, No trouble on the two squizzers shot yet and letting the rabbits alone for the moment.

Hi mate you will normally get more movement from birds (not sure why) but rabbits and squirrels drop like a ton of sh*t with my .177 and so do birds with rib shots but when shooting pigeons they always flap before they hit the floor for me. The flapping stops after a fue seconds though none of this flapping all around the floor.

[markha 99]

This thread has had me read things three times, then had me chuckling quietly to myself

 

At the end of the day there are 2 guys on this thread who have the following attributes:

 

They are/were professional soldiers one is currently serving and trust me, if you knew just a little bit about the courses and qualifications he holds regarding ballistics, you would just take his word.

 

The other is an ex UK forces sniper, I think we can all guess how well he knows his craft.

 

Its always a great subject, calibre, pellet deformation, over penetration.

 

Its not what you have got, its where you hit them. Learn the rainbow for your preferred calibre at all hunting distances.

[zini 1,939]

Its not what you have got, its where you hit them. Learn the rainbow for your preferred calibre at all hunting distances.

 

Spot on advice that Mark buddy

 

What Mark as just written caps all the thread in one go.

 

ATB

 

Si

[matt_hooks 188]

Its not what you have got, its where you hit them. Learn the rainbow for your preferred calibre at all hunting distances.

 

That says it all really.

 

I have never questioned Si or Simon's knowledge or skills, and would love to sit down with them one day and have a chat, I get the feeling that it would be a learning experience (for me certainly, maybe for both sides)

 

I come from the theoretical background, a degree in engineering and lots of that work was to do with aerodynamics, external ballistics and ballistic trajectories. That doesn't make me an expert, far from it, but I do know a little about the subject. The real experts are the blokes who go out and rely on the skills and knowledge to keep their heads (quite literally)

 

The one thing I learnt more than anything was that you can have as sophisticated a model as you like, and the real world ballistics will still turn round and stick two fingers up at you.

 

The maths is interesting, but incredibly complex, and there are variables involved that are pretty much unknowable (wind downrange for a start) and THAT is where the best ballistic calculator of them all comes in, the human brain!

 

If you fire enough rounds, at enough different distances, you WILL learn the trajectory of the calibre you use. That should be the aim of every shooter. We can sit and analyse till we are blue in the face.

 

We can argue that our particular favourite calibre is "the best" until the cows come home, but what we have to realise is it is best FOR US, but maybe not for someone else.

 

In the airgun calibers, any and all of them are more than capable, when fired from a well looked after, 10 plus foot pound rifle, of killing any of the legal quarry at 40 metres, or even more, as long as the soggy organic bit on the end points them in the right place.

 

That is the important bit. The rifle will deliver the power to kill, if only we can get it in the right place. That's where the main tenet of good air gun shooting comes in. Practice, practice and practice some more. And when you have it perfected, practice some more still because you havent got it perfected!

[Wolfey 0]

I am new to shooting but doesn't a .17Hmr deliver a lot more energy than the heavier and slower .22lr?

 

Matt you on the booze mate?

 

That's some of the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read from you pal.

 

All these myths you keep dispelling, you only have to look on chair gun and you see the differences in calibre. Another thing a larger surface area hitting a target will cause more damage fact.

 

Something travelling slower and heavier transfers more stopping power than something small and fast.

 

If you want the proof set up a empty bean can at 30 metres and shoot it once with both calibres to see what the difference is mate.

 

Regarding the mis shaping of pellets with softer lead if you were to shoot a corps of a rabbit at 30 metres with a Bisley Magmun with a 8 to 9 fp rifle the pellet would hopefully stay within the corps to inspect. The Magnum would be almost the same shape as it was before it was fired but if you did that with a Falcon Accuracy pellet which is lots softer the pellet would be another story mate and the skirts come forward on impact slightly making for better transfer.

 

This will turn out to be a interesting thread now but you have given me a idea pal for some video footage in a few weeks time when I'm over again where I will video this experiment with regulars on here as witnesses so the myth can be proven.

 

Si

[andyfr1968 772]

I am new to shooting but doesn't a .17Hmr deliver a lot more energy than the heavier and slower .22lr?

 

Matt you on the booze mate?

 

That's some of the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read from you pal.

 

All these myths you keep dispelling, you only have to look on chair gun and you see the differences in calibre. Another thing a larger surface area hitting a target will cause more damage fact.

 

Something travelling slower and heavier transfers more stopping power than something small and fast.

 

If you want the proof set up a empty bean can at 30 metres and shoot it once with both calibres to see what the difference is mate.

 

Regarding the mis shaping of pellets with softer lead if you were to shoot a corps of a rabbit at 30 metres with a Bisley Magmun with a 8 to 9 fp rifle the pellet would hopefully stay within the corps to inspect. The Magnum would be almost the same shape as it was before it was fired but if you did that with a Falcon Accuracy pellet which is lots softer the pellet would be another story mate and the skirts come forward on impact slightly making for better transfer.

 

This will turn out to be a interesting thread now but you have given me a idea pal for some video footage in a few weeks time when I'm over again where I will video this experiment with regulars on here as witnesses so the myth can be proven.

 

Si

 

Hi, mate and welcome to the forum

 

Bullet size and weight aside it's not just a case of one bullet being different to the other, the HMR round is based on the Winchester R/F Magnum case which is a fair bit bigger than a normal .22 L/R one and so holds a good bit more powder, hence the higher energy from the .17 bullet.

 

Cheers.

Edited March 16, 2011 by andyfr1968