for the true conservationist

[T.F.Student 0]

Well...if i told you i've seen this and seen that on a regular basis over many years...you wouldn't believe me...and i wouldn't expect you to...talk is cheap...luckily...The truth is only a click or search away these days.

 

Ding Dong Seconds Out

[Guest MOLLY]

Blooming heck Molly

Hen harriers only 12 pairs left look under the map on the right http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/guide/h/henharrier/index.asp

 

This is what happens when you hold one species above another.

Harriers at Langholm http://www.gct.org.uk/text03.asp?PageId=53

 

Also if you invest more...you will get more...and have to invest more...then where does it end.

Sorry i should have stated in Northumberland , dont know if you get the extinct programme where you are, they do a section about declining numbers in your local area, big piece in it last week regarding the hen harriers

I have nothing against shooting game birds, ffs i live on a huge shooting estate

No antis have gotten into my subconcious Duckwing, just my own concious. Just because a person is into hunting does'nt mean they have to do/like/agree with all forms of hunting in its entirety. Perhaps i am a bit of a tree hugger...much nicer description i think than 'anti' wouldnt you agree

Of course control is not eradication....im not as blonde as i look as i said earlier........

Q} How does the average Joe know when a species stops becoming a pest and then becomes nearly extinct?....

A} They dont, they just keep on killing because that is what they have always done so it must be right

I live in the centre of 4 areas owned by 4 different land owners, and keepered by 4 different gamies. Just as an example of my Q&A, what happens if each gamie thinks they are doing just enough to keep the numbers down without eradicating them from the area, then there are the local blokes who shoot them because they have always known they are pests and should be shot? None of them knowing what the others are doing. That could theoretically wipe out that species in that area

Im not trying to argue with people about this subject, im more interested in the debate than the name calling....very interesting subject.

I also wonder if any gamies here can hand on heart say they try to control bop numbers without trying to completely clear their area of them...after all isnt that their job, to protect the game birds?

mavphill Posted Today, 12:50 AM

Like, wolves, beavers, otters... hen harriers, white tailed eagles...pests the lot of em!

Mavphill does have a point, again in Northumberland there has been a huge surge to bring the otter back, almost completely wiped out here, built a huge lake with man made holts....and guess who has to pay for this to happen....ME and every other person who pays tax.

MOLL.

[miles 227]

Also as a matter of interest... Read point No 5...With a typical bill oddie type intro... http://www.english-nature.org.uk/news/story.asp?ID=520 ...If its happened once it will happen again all the fledged peregrines from this brood will also know that the harrier is fair game.

Exactly T,F! So why poison a pair of Eagles on a grouse moor? They will prey on harriers,stoats,martins etc and the odd grouse but mainly the hundreds of white hares that inhabit these moors.Ive been up running them enough times and there everywere!Ive seen your pics with a trailer full of non native red legged partridge,what harm do these do to the native common partridge? Grey squirrels have a direct impact on the native reds,signal cray fish on native etc. On my local moor as soon as a harrier,buzzards perigrines apper,they are gone within weeks.As already stated,there part of nature and there for a reason,not like those subsidised killing machines CATS,,,,,,,

[byron 1,093]

can't find bird survival but found this, is it same thig?

 

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/

thats the one spread the word

Complete crap Are you a keeper in disgiuse?

a keeper of what. enlighten me?

still no answer of you yet miles. sat here waiting

[T.F.Student 0]

Molly and Miles just because there aren't any harriers in your locality at the moment, it does not mean they are dead or have been killed by anyone! http://www.thebirdinsight.com/forum/archiv....php/t-578.html I doubt Molly the program you watched mentioned this? as there wouldn't be a program. I think you will be pleasantly surprised come the breeding season.

 

Molly i read you watched the program on the pine marten...they did a numbers feasibility study...I don't see why this approach cannot by taken for any bird or animal...and the required steps being taken.

 

Otters in Northumberland: http://www.northumberland-national-park.or...urns/otters.htm

 

"why poison a pair of Eagles on a grouse moor?" Someone obviously believed they had just cause...could be a number of people for a number of reasons. Birds and animals don't just need to prey on another species to to cause a problem...Just disturbance at the wrong time of year is enough to reduce numbers. Which can have an effect on someones livelihood, this causes some people to take drastic action.

 

I am more than happy for the shooting community to put down redlegs and pheasants and and they can shoot as many as they wish...When you see thousands of other birds including BOP you know its a winner all round. The Greys main problem is chick survival(see links below). I guess that the cutting of grass three times a year doesn't help either, though i could find no mention of this. The increase in BOP also has to factor, but with plenty of redlegs and other small birds to go at the reduction in the number of greys must be less than what it would/could of been. This coupled with the shooting and trapping/snaring of foxes, stoats, weasels, corvids and rats has ensured the survival of what we have now.

 

Heres a link click "more" under population and distribution.

http://blx1.bto.org/birdfacts/results/bob3670.htm

 

Answers to a few questions: http://www.gct.org.uk/greypartridge/questions.html

 

Read the paragraph titled: Birds of Prey are predators at the top of the food chain http://www.sheepdrove.com/article.asp?art_id=46

 

Look at the food chain diagram: http://www.raysapoint.com/foodchains.html

 

Wildlife organisations and the CountrySports community are becoming very close these days...hopefully agreements can be made...for the bettterment of all species.

Edited November 16, 2006 by T.F.Student

[Guest MOLLY]

T.F.Student You put up tooo many links, please just give a brief resume, i dont have time to read them all

I never said there were not any Harriers at the mo, infact i said there are 12 breeding pairs. Im just playing devils advocate and asking questions

I doubt Molly the program you watched mentioned this?

Lost me there...what bit are you on about

Your post confuses me, you are saying you are happy for people to kill bop for money in one breath then saying if you see bop its a winner all round

MOLL.

[T.F.Student 0]

Ok clarify...I doubted the extinction program told you about the movements of the harrier. Details of movements via link. Where i got the none in your area from looking back i don't know...perhaps i got lost in here somewhere:

QUOTE

Q} How does the average Joe know when a species stops becoming a pest and then becomes nearly extinct?....

A} They dont, they just keep on killing because that is what they have always done so it must be right

I live in the centre of 4 areas owned by 4 different land owners, and keepered by 4 different gamies. Just as an example of my Q&A, what happens if each gamie thinks they are doing just enough to keep the numbers down without eradicating them from the area, then there are the local blokes who shoot them because they have always known they are pests and should be shot? None of them knowing what the others are doing. That could theoretically wipe out that species in that area

Im not trying to argue with people about this subject, im more interested in the debate than the name calling....very interesting subject.

I also wonder if any gamies here can hand on heart say they try to control bop numbers without trying to completely clear their area of them...after all isnt that their job, to protect the game birds?

 

"Your post confuses me, you are saying you are happy for people to kill bop for money in one breath then saying if you see bop its a winner all round "

 

Hell that does read really badly...I was infact refering to the putting/rearing of gamebirds redlegs in particular i will edit accordingly.

 

Looking at it again i think i must of got the "non" from miles's post. This is what happens when your buying a cooker/having a discussion and posting on the net at the same time.

Edited November 16, 2006 by T.F.Student

[Guest MOLLY]

Was gonna say you must be a female being able to multi task like that....but a female would'nt have made any mistakes whilst doing it :whistle:

MOLL.

[T.F.Student 0]

[lucky 578]

i dont agree with killing birds of prey either, but then again they dont affect my livelyhood, one thing i dont understand is people killing them to stop them taking gamebirds that are getting shot dead anyway imo like most things in life it all boils down to money

[T.F.Student 0]

All i can say is...i cannot understand how people who believe in the control of(for money, for sport and for vermin control) rats,weasels,stoats,grey squirrels, mink, foxes,deer, pigeons, geese, gulls, magpies, carrion crows, jackdaws, rooks etc...get a touch of the bambi syndrome when it comes to discussing the control of raptors.

 

It just doesn't make sense!

 

Again!!! this is what happens when raptors are left unchecked: http://www.scottishgamekeepers.co.uk/langholm.htm

Edited November 17, 2006 by T.F.Student

[DUCKWING 302]

WELL ,

 

I HAVENT HAD TIME TO BE ABLE TO GET ON THE NET FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS AS IVE BEEN HUNTING ........ BUT I SEE MILES HAS SUFACED WITH A REPLY , .......

 

WELL MILES ........ YOU CAN PUT AS MUCH SPIN ON IT AS A LABOUR PARTY WHIP ........ IT MAKES NO DIFFERANCE ........... YOUR POST HAS PROVED TO ME YOUR A .... " COWARD "

 

 

TF STUDENT ... YOUR POST IS MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY !!!

 

THERES ONLY ONE WORD TO DISCRIBE SOME OF THE POSTS ON THIS THREAD ........... HYPOCRISY !!

 

MOLLY , IAM SURE YOU DID LIVE NEAR A LARGE TOWN .... BEFORE MOVING BETWEEN SHOOTS ? ...... ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THAT THE GROUND HELD AS MUCH DIVERSITY OF WILDLIFE ???, THE KEEPERED LAND AROUND ME WITH PREDATORS KEPT IN CHECK HOLDS 5 TIMES AS MUCH , FROM SMALL BIRDS ETC ... UPWARDS ,

PEOPLE IN GENERAL , BELIVE THAT CERTAIN SPECIES ARENT PRESENT IN AREAS BECAUSE THEY HAVENT COME ACROSS THEM , AT THE WEEKEND ME AND THE LAMPERMAN WERE OUT FERRETING ON SOME LAND .... WE SAW RAVENS , BUZZARDS , BLACKCOCKS , KESTRALS ETC ...... ALL ON KEEPERED LAND . THERES OTTER , MUNTJAC AND PINE MARTENS AROUND ME , JUST BECAUSE OTHER HUNTING MEN HAVENT SEEN THEM DOESNT MAKE IT SO .......

 

REMEMBER ........... BOP LIKE ANY PREDATOR GO FOR AN EASY KILL ..... THAT BRINGS THEM INTO CONFLICT WITH MAN .... A FACT !

 

ON ANOTHER POINT YOU RAISED MOLLY ........... WITH ALL THE KEEPERS AROUND YOU AND FROM YOUR POSTS ..... THERE SEEMS A BIT OF A LACK OF RABBITS ?

WOULD YOUR THEORY ON THE BOP EXTEND TO THE CONTROL OF RABBITS ?. WHAT IF THE GAMIES ARE OUT CONTROLING TOO ?

I AINT BEING PICKEY MOLL , JUST EXTENDING YOUR THEORY ....

 

ALL THE BEST

DUCKWING

[Guest MOLLY]

No Ducky, it was a small but heavily populated town surrounded by the beautiful Northumberland countryside, a town well known by lots of coursing dog owners...lurcher Mecca

From being a small child my spare time has been mooching, whether on my own with my imaginary badger and greyhound in the woods behind my house (you could in those days) or older with the 'real' dogs. I encountered more wildlife.....weasels, bop, fox, rabbit, pheasant, roe, woodcock etc etc. The only different wildlife i have seen since moving have been red squirrel and hare. I was informed there were hare in a certain place i used to walk the dogs but i never saw one. I have not lived on a shooting estate till i moved here and the only real increase in animals are the game birds reared for shooting. But regardless of where i lived my views would not have been different. I am assured by the keeper and farmer of my land i am the only person controlling the rabbits, infact the farmer was over the moon when he found out i would. The numbers are not great enough for the keeper to bother leaving the house for. And if there are people poaching they are not using lamps or leaving any sign...both hare and rabbit are unaware of what a lamp is for, the only other hunting here is with beagles and minkhounds. I have no idea why them popolation is so small, just small pockets here and there, but enough to keep us going...are you sure your not confusing my old permission with here...the old place is very heavily controlled!

To be honest i have no idea what you were trying to get at with your post

If i am a hypocrite to think that it is wrong to control other species when endangered for money, then i am a hypocrite. Please explain where is the dividing line between people who killed sea cows, tigers, elephants etc etc for financial gain, and those killing bop for the same reasons?

I do understand the reason for control, i am not on about areas heavily populated by bop, but when an animal is on the endangered list or is known to have very few breeding pairs. Imo i dont thing 500 breeding pairs of Hen harriers in the whole of the country to be very many

MOLL.

[DUCKWING 302]

WELL MOLL,

 

I KNOW THAT TOWN VERY WELL ....... AND INFACT VISIT REGULARY ,

THOUGH TO BE CALLED A MECCA ? ..... SOUNDS LIKE A CERTAIN FELLAS SALES PITCH

THERE ISNT A HUGE AMOUNT OF WILDLIFE AROUND ... OR I HAVE BEEN UNLUCKY WHEN OUT RAKING REGULARY WITH A CLOSE FRIEND ?

TO BE HONEST MOLL ......YOUR RIGHT I DONT SEE A PROBLEM WITH CONTROLING ELEPHANTS OR TIGERS ... " IF " THERE NUMBERS BECAME A PROBLEM ..... IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT IT IS ....IF IT.......... " NEEDS " CONTROLING SO BE IT .

 

THAT DOESNT MEAN I BELIVE IN HUNTING DOWN THE LAST SNOW LEOPARD ETC FOR A FEW QUID ....

SO ......

WHATS THE POINT OF CONTROLING RABBITS / HARES THAT REALLY ARENT A PROBLEM TO THE FARMER ? ....... A QUESTION THAT COULD BE ASKED TO MANY HUNTERS I SUPPOSE , I DARE SAY THE ANTIS WOULDNT DRAW A LINE BETWEEN A BOP AND A RABBIT ?

YOU SEE MOLL ...... WHAT I WAS TRYING TO GET AT IS , AS TF STUDENT PUT IT THE BAMBI SYNDROME

IE, CERTAIN CREATURES YOU ARE ALLOWED TO KILL... OTHERS ARE TREATED LIKE THE HOLY GRAIL ., THE THING IS MOLL I TREAT " ALL " ANIMALS WITH THE SAME RESPECT , DEAD OR ALIVE, SOMETHING I WISH OTHERS WOULD DO ..

AS THE LAMPERMAN OR THE STALLION WILL TELL YOU , IAM A STUDENT OF NATURE , AND LOVE SEEING THE NATURAL WORLD AT LARGE AND HAVE SO SINCE BEING OLD ENOUGH TO WALK ....... BUT ........... AS MAN HAS OVER POPULATED AND THROWN THIS OVER CROWDED COUNTRY OUT OF KILTER , THE WILDLIFE NEEDS MANAGEING ........... IMO

 

ALL THE BEST DUCKWING

[Guest MOLLY]

THERE ISNT A HUGE AMOUNT OF WILDLIFE AROUND ... OR I HAVE BEEN UNLUCKY WHEN OUT RAKING REGULARY WITH A CLOSE FRIEND ?

You certainly have'nt been in the right places I dont know how anyone could possibly say that....depends where you were and what you were doing i suppose? Not many people can say on public walks they can literally bump into fox and roe, catch bunnies daily....and im not on about going out hunting, just walking the dogs.

 

WHATS THE POINT OF CONTROLING RABBITS / HARES THAT REALLY ARENT A PROBLEM TO THE FARMER ?

I agree, my farmers bunnies are a problem because of where they are. On my permission, he seems to think he has hundreds I think he thinks im just not very good at controlling them when i tell him ive only got 2 or even none after a night out

I have the same issue with people killing fox who are not a 'pest' to anyone.

 

TREAT " ALL " ANIMALS WITH THE SAME RESPECT , DEAD OR ALIVE

im with you 100% on this one.

 

AS MAN HAS OVER POPULATED AND THROWN THIS OVER CROWDED COUNTRY OUT OF KILTER , THE WILDLIFE NEEDS MANAGEING ........... IMO

Again i agree.....but the other side of the coin also applies...because of man the wildlife needs HELP

 

No bambi syndrome here Ducky. I dont care if its a dirty rat, bop or an ant, if an animal is in decline then it should be protected at all times. Not killed because it is still a nusiance or costs us money.

And my argument is still...how do people know when an animal stops being a pest and needing to be controlled, and becomes endangered. Surely you cannot argue history of other species like the otter etc is wrong?

MOLL.

 

PS...does seem to be a mecca, ive never been anywhere and seen so many lurchers, either being walked as pets, out with camoed lads, in allotments or roaming the streets...just found yet another one last Thursday