Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
john robbo

Balistic tip "hunting"

Recommended Posts

Surely the V in V-max stands for VERMIN????? Hence why that particular bullet expands quickly...think about it :hmm:

 

As has been stated there are different kinds of BT's note the differences in the link, it seems you have only had experience of varmint bullets hunter zero??

 

Note the different colours of tips which denote the type of BT :thumbs:

 

http://www.nosler.com/bullets.htm

Edited by ratattack

Share this post


Link to post

 

John I am sorry to tell you this, actually I'm not at all sorry at all, if you had not been such an arse about this i might have phrased this differently, you are sooooooooo wrong :boxing: You should apologise to mr Logic :yes:

 

amended firearms act of 1997;

 

Now apologise, or be gone, either will do :feck:

 

ft

 

I quote but one thing.

 

we have showed four missiles (two of each kind) to experienced riflemen, senior police officers and firearms administration staff. No-one has yet correctly identified which missiles are prohibited and which are uncontrolled

 

and the firearms act has little to do with the deer act.

The above is exactly what I am doing my level best to point out, and that is that polymer tipped bullets have not been defined accurately in legislation, which the above proves.

Yes, we know that certain polymer tipped bullets are designed for deer shooting and may even be better than the more traditional bullets but whilst we have the deer act stating as it does, we have an issue and that is by definition polymer tipped bullets to not fit in to either category stated in the act, to further add to the confusion the manufactures state that their polymer tipped bullets are neither soft or hollow nosed, as already stated this is a grey area and I prefer to stay legal and not use polymer tipped bullets. There is no need for you to have a hissy fit about things, I fear the slightest bit of flatulence from MR_Logic will leave you flat on your back.

 

John, the deer act (quoted below)

 

Prohibited firearms and ammunition

 

Firearms

 

1

Any smooth-bore gun. .

2

Any rifle having a calibre of less than .240 inches or a muzzle energy of less than 2,305 joules (1,700 foot pounds). .

3

Any air gun, air rifle or air pistol. .

Ammunition

 

4

Any cartridge for use in a smooth-bore gun. .

5

Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet. .

 

Now forgive me if I continue my "hissy fit", you are being disingenuous at best in your argument. There is no way that a polymer tipped bullet, which is designed to expand in a predictable manner by the manufacturer does not fit in the above catagory. Even the House of Commons accepts that they do, even if they admit there is little or no way to tell the bullets apart. There is nothing illegal about it. Nor is there anything illegal about polymer tipped copper bullets, as they too are designed to expand in a predictable manner, which is the criteria in law.

 

As for flatulence, I fear that you suffer from it verbally, because you appear to be talking out of your rear end.

 

ft

Share this post


Link to post

 

As for flatulence, I fear that you suffer from it verbally, because you appear to be talking out of your rear end.

 

ft

 

Then for the love of god, show me ANY manufactures data that suggests, describes, markets, advertises or remotely hints that polymer tipped bullets are either SOFT NOSE OR HOLLOW NOSE. I can show evidence that the manufacture does NOT describe these type of bullets as either.

 

John

Edited by HUnter_zero

Share this post


Link to post

 

As for flatulence, I fear that you suffer from it verbally, because you appear to be talking out of your rear end.

 

ft

 

Then for the love of god, show me ANY manufactures data that suggests, describes, markets, advertises or remotely hints that polymer tipped bullets are either SOFT NOSE OR HOLLOW NOSE. I can show evidence that the manufacture does NOT describe these type of bullets as either.

 

John

John, Here is manufacturers advertising that promotes a cavity behind its polymer tip,

 

http://www.nosler.com/etip.htm

 

I presume that you will allow that "Cavity" in the English language equates to "Hollow".

 

You have the proof you asked for for, now recant.

 

ft

Share this post


Link to post

John, Here is manufacturers advertising that promotes a cavity behind its polymer tip,

 

http://www.nosler.com/etip.htm

 

I presume that you will allow that "Cavity" in the English language equates to "Hollow".

 

You have the proof you asked for for, now recant.

 

ft

 

 

If you dissect a FMJ bullet you will find (or at least I have found) an area at the tip which has no lead, does this make a FMJ bullet hollow nosed and legal for deer shooting? Based on your opinion that a bullet capped with a polymer tip that covers a hollow is in fact both soft nosed and hollow nosed, then surely you must agree that a bullet encapsulated with copper with a hollow at the tip must be a hollow nosed bullet with copper covering the hollow section?

As an aside, I have contacted Nosler and ask the question " In the UK the deer act states we must use a bullet that is either of soft nose construction or hollow nose construction, would you agree that the BT design of bullet fills this requirement or would you recommend I continue to use Partition gold for my deer shooting? ", I will post the reply here. You seem to have gone on the defensive, there is very little need to be confrontational as I would be more than happy to agree with you and use polymer tipped bullets if I could find any legislation or published data that would negate any concerns over the legalities of the deer act. I do not operate in Grey areas, frankly there is no real need to and would not follow advise given which is akin to "the chap down the pub told me...". I may well be wrong over polymer tipped bullets not conforming to the requirements of the deer act, but I would not give two drops of a sparrows bladder of a care as I would rather be wrong than look a right idiot and lose my FAC because some dick weed on the 'net' told me it was okay. By far and wide, it's better to be safe than very sorry indeed. The link describes the bullet as being E-Tip not soft or hollow tipped.

 

John

Edited by HUnter_zero

Share this post


Link to post

John, This will be my final missive on the subject. You have ignored the one proof that you asked for, there in the advert is a clearly marked "expansion cavity". Then you have reverted to semantics, again.

 

First you admit it is a grey area that is not legislated upon, then in the next breath say that to use polymer tipped bullets is illegal. Ignoring totally the link to the "Home Affairs Select Committee Comments and recommendations on the administration of the Firearms Act 1968, as amended January 2000" who form and shape the legislation on this matter.

 

So forgive me, if you can, for not worrying about some "dickweed" on the net telling me I am breaking the law while shooting deer with my 129gn Hornady SST's :feck:

 

:bye: ft

Edited by flytie

Share this post


Link to post

Surely the V in V-max stands for VERMIN????? Hence why that particular bullet expands quickly...think about it :hmm:

 

As has been stated there are different kinds of BT's note the differences in the link, it seems you have only had experience of varmint bullets hunter zero??

 

Note the different colours of tips which denote the type of BT :thumbs:

 

http://www.nosler.com/bullets.htm

The colour coding on balistic tips are calibre relevant not vermin /deer type.

Share this post


Link to post

Had an email back from Nosler, so this is the second major bullet manufacture I have contacted.

I'm guessing these guys are way more qualified and by farmore experianced than end users to pass

comment.

 

You will remember I asked the question "In the UK the deer act states we must use a bullet that is either of soft nose construction or hollow nose construction, would you agree that the BT design of bullet fills this requirement or would you recommend I continue to use Partition gold for my deer shooting? "

 

Nosler reply was :

 

"The Ballistic Tip is neither a hollow point or soft nose. It has a hard polymer tip. It does make a very good deer bullet, but may not conform to your regulations."

 

Hornady reply was :

 

"John, They are neither. They are polymer tipped fragmenting bullets. Thanks"

 

Make of it what you will, debate and shount till your blue in the face but two main manufactures have both stated polymer tipped bullets are not soft nose or hollow nosed bullets, as such I stand by my original point, the use of such bullets is illegal due to the description of bullets that are defined in the Deer act and until the act is revised to be more descriptive with regards to bullet construction permitted for deer shooting, this is always going to be a very grey area.

 

John

Edited by HUnter_zero

Share this post


Link to post

You believe what you like - try going to back to Nosler with the information that manufacturers and distributors actively market their product for use on deer in this country, and see what they say then regarding legality.Ultimately, there is a bloody great hollow section in the tip, and while they call it a hard polymer, if I take a knife to it, it's much softer than the copper. The polymer tip doesn't work well without a cavity - the wedge drives this cavity apart which is what initiates the expansion in the first place. Ergo, all polymer tips must have a hollow section.But whatever. There's no telling you, you won't hear anything that isn't you, so leave your earplugs in and carry on living in HunterZero land. I'll stay in the real world.

Share this post


Link to post

I started this topic and have sat back and watched, I openly admit to not liking b/tip type bullets on roe only from a meat prespective they actually kill better than any other bullet. BUT if the manufactureres actually don't class them as either, I think HZ has a point as surley if it ever went to court the solicitors would ask the makers what they "termed" the bullets as. THEY make em after all.

Not taking sides here just adding to the debate (I hope). You can buy allsorts of things marketed and good for a use but it dosnt make them legal for that use.

match bullets ARE hollow points and most expand well they fit the discription "hollow point" but are they legal?

Sako rws norma market soft point bullets for use on roe and they work well north of the border but not here ????

regards john.

Edited by john robbo

Share this post


Link to post

Match bullets ARE legal in England and Wales - they DO have a hollow point. In England/Wales law, the expansion is not considered. I wouldn't use those bullets on deer, or any other animal, but they are legal.I agree that the Scottish law is the best way to term it, it makes life much easier for all to understand.Regarding the manufacturer stuff - you haven't got an answer from a Company lawyer, so that would be a good place to start.Tell you what, I'll drop Winchester an email about their full page advertisement in BASC's magazine this month and see what they say. The one with the polymer tip bullet and a bloody great picture of a deer.Before that, my argument has never been that a polymer tip equates to a hollow point or soft point in normal shooting terms, as it's not. To shooters, a soft point has exposed lead core, and a hollow point has a hollow point with nothing in it. BUT, and this has been my point from the beginning and it still is my bloody point, the Act does not define such ammunition. Forgetting the shooter's terminology for a minute, technically, the polymer tip IS softer than copper, and it DOES have a hollow point. How many f***ing times do I have to say this? It goes back to the same old issue with legislation about key phrases and terms not being properly explained and defined, BUT this works in the shooter's favour - something is legal until it is explicitly outlawed, and therefore, this Act is confusing here. That confusion means that no successful prosecution can be brought, and therefore it's legal!

Share this post


Link to post

Now match bullets may be legal in england but your ticket states you can buy and use expanding missiles.And you are required to shot deer foxes and vermin only with expanding ammo.

But then there is legislation to say match bullets can be sent by post as they are match bullets not designed to expand.

This is where even more confusion kicks in.

I agree and see where you are coming from with your statements but when the manufacturers dont recognise these as sp/hp. you have to admit its all technicalities and a "grey" area.

Edited by john robbo

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×