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RicW

Expanding ammunition

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It should`nt matter if a round carry`s straight through the beast still retaining energy because you`d have a safe back stop before pulling the trigger. Would`nt you??

But any way Deker tell me what type and how many Deer legal (England only) weapons you have in your cabinet?

 

 

 

Oh Dear...You really haven't thought any of that one through have you!! :hmm:

 

I have no intention of justify myself to you. I have met many people on this site and they know my abilities and experience!

 

The appropriate V-Max of the appropriate weight/calibre DESTROYS deer, if it didn't for you then you used the wrong tools and ammo...

 

And I am not a Deer Stalker, I am a successful Game and Vermin Controller, there is a big difference which many here fail to grasp!!

 

I have only ever been deer stalking once, in Scotland, more years ago than I care to remember, .308 was the standard issue and the dogs where used to track the injured deer!! If only we had V-Max then! :whistling::whistling:

 

ATB! :thumbs:

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Gentlemen please let's all ease off. Many of the people contributing to this thread have been, rightly. rebuked by Sporting Shooter for aggro with the dog men. Are we now going to start fighting among ourselves? To me it seems fairly simple. If you can take a shot with the reasonable expectation that your quarry will drop with that one shot then there should be no problem. Obviously you can never be sure in advance of the shot that it will kill at once but if you are morally certain of a clean kill then take the shot, and be prepared to follow up if necessary. Or shall we all go out and get .700 Nitro Express? I remarked on another thread that my mum used to fire 4.5" Vickers AA at Heinkel bombers. I invite you to imagine what that round would do to a fox, deer, elephant or BLOODY GREAT BIG DINOSAUR. 60 LBS of aluminium reinforced RDX down yer throat at 5000 mph. Whoops.

 

Ric

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Guest vimto.

The water getting too deep Deker :laugh: never mind eh.. For the record i`m neither a Deer Stalker but a vermin controler and believe it or not i`m quite successful at it too ;) and i still wouldn't load V-max or Hollow points for Deer control.

But anyway just out of interest and like our John says what happens to your carcasses? How do you dispose of them??

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I do not take out paid shooters on country estate stalks and I have no vested interest in leaving a deer community to thrive, my task is eradication. The right V-Max is Brilliant at stopping them, I have never had a runner!

 

This whole concept of Deer Vermin Control seems alien to a large number of stalkers, well, get real and open your eyes, round here there are so many deer they are a pain in the arse and cause a lot of damage!

 

Deker, you claim to control deer as "vermin" and as such openly admit that the meat is useless, so as you also claim to shoot fair numbers of deer could you please explain how and where you dispose of the carcasses?

 

John

 

 

Chap..once again you have not thought that through or read my posts correctly, I said the animal is destroyed, you do not get a clean carcase, I did not say the meat is useless

 

If you shoot them in the heart as suggested by the BDS, BASC, DEFRA etc, etc, then the chest cavity simply becomes a mess. There is plenty of meat left in the legs, rear loin, neck, etc etc for good joints/burgers/sausages/casserole etc etc, you just don't get a good carcase!

 

You are also demonstrating a serious lack of understanding of the countryside and how nature works!!

 

Any and all unwanted parts are left discreetly on site ....a WHOLE deer will disappear in 7 days top at the right time of year with help from the rest of nature, "parts" will disappear overnight generally...what do you think happens to all the Deer, fox, badger, rabbit, squirrel, birds etc etc that die naturally EVERY day of every year!!!

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The water getting too deep Deker :laugh: never mind eh.. For the record i`m neither a Deer Stalker but a vermin controler and believe it or not i`m quite successful at it too ;) and i still wouldn't load V-max or Hollow points for Deer control.

But anyway just out of interest and like our John says what happens to your carcasses? How do you dispose of them??

 

 

Each to their own, I have NEVER told anyone here what ammo to use on deer, thats down to you, but HP also have a place for me, although most of mine go down with SP.

 

Waters never too deep for me...... :angel::whistling:

 

And I don't get this carcase disposal issue ..what is the problem here, SEE POST ABOVE, I have a queue of people and restaurants to take the Cuts, no issue to them most of the time, it's primarily my Game Dealer who wants "Head Shot" for a clean carcase to hang up, but even he will take the cuts for sausages/pies/burgers etc!!

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Unfortunately John you are wrong here, the V-max and similar type of bullet is included in either definition.

 

When you can produce legislation that either defines polymer tipped bullets as either hollow or soft point or ANY legislation that condones the use of polymer tipped bullets for deer control then you might have a point to make, other wise it's just your opinion, which is wrong.

 

John

Sorry, but you've got that the wrong way round.

 

In this country, something is legal until such time as it is outlawed.

 

The law does not define hollow or soft point bullets beyond the words "hollow" and "soft nosed". Consequently, the polymer tip is allowed because it DOES have a hollow point - look at the manufacturer's cross section. Also, a large amount of polymer tipped bullets are successfully used on large quarry by a large number of people in the UK, it's perfectly legal and considerably better than soft point, that's why it was invented.

 

Unfortunately for your argument, the lack of the words 'polymer tipped' in legislation makes jack all difference, because, as I have said many times and you seem incapable of grasping, they are covered by the term hollow point.

 

You also seem to fail to grasp the point that there are different types of polymer tip, just as there are different types of soft point...

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I said the animal is destroyed, you do not get a clean carcase, I did not say the meat is useless

You are also demonstrating a serious lack of understanding of the countryside and how nature works!!

Any and all unwanted parts are left discreetly on site ....a WHOLE deer will disappear in 7 days top

 

Deker let me just address my "understanding". I own shooting rights and I also lease shooting rights for everything from Snipe to Red deer, that means if I so wanted I could take any one from here, give them authority to stalk deer off my own back and they could apply to their police force for a .308 and be granted one with in a week or so. I hold a DSC1 & DSC2 which means I can mentor them to the point where they can go it alone. I am a full time pest controller qualified by the BPCA to both level 2&3 which not only means many extremely large and prestigious business take my opinion very seriously and act on my advice, it also means I fully understand the way in which nature works but more importantly I also know and understand the law with regards to leaving dead animals rotting in a work place, it might come as a surprise but the HSE do take a serious interest in farms and as you are acting as a 'professional' I was very interested in the way in which you claim to dispose of carcasses, your explanation has just confirmed what I already knew. As for 7 days, I am surprised DEFRA hasn't gone down that avenue with regards to farm stock but being the professional I am more than sure you know the law and DEFRA's take on such issues. I have no wish to argue with a tub thumper but may I remind you of what you actualy stated "If you intend to eat it forget V-Max, meat damage is awesome!".

 

John

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Unfortunately for your argument, the lack of the words 'polymer tipped' in legislation makes jack all difference, because, as I have said many times and you seem incapable of grasping, they are covered by the term hollow point.

 

As I presumed, you can not supply any legislative information backing up your opinion that Polymer tipped bullets are defined by UK law as soft or hollow nosed.

Could you please supply ANY manufacturer data for V-max that states the bullets are either soft or hollow pointed bullets?

 

John

Edited by HUnter_zero

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Quote: You are also demonstrating a serious lack of understanding of the countryside and how nature works!!

Any and all unwanted parts are left discreetly on site ....a WHOLE deer will disappear in 7 days top at the right time of year with help from the rest of nature, "parts" will disappear overnight generally...

 

 

Let me tell you Deker you haven't thought that one through either because for a fact you`d be liable for prosecution as well as the land owner if you left any carcass on any land that you had shot.

Even if the Deer had died of natural causes and wasn't disposed of correctly he the land owner would still be liable for prosecution.

My understanding it that your quite a wasteful person in more way`s than one. There`s no way any reputable game dealer would put any of your Venison into the food chain so my thoughts are that you must process the snotty bits for yourself and friends. Again what a waste and a shame and in my opinion it has more to do with calibre of gun and the land that your allowed to shoot it on.

If im correct i recall you have a 308? Is that just for the range? Because opportunist springs to mind with the use of the varmint calibre and rounds for dispatching problem Deer..

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Quote: You are also demonstrating a serious lack of understanding of the countryside and how nature works!!

Any and all unwanted parts are left discreetly on site ....a WHOLE deer will disappear in 7 days top at the right time of year with help from the rest of nature, "parts" will disappear overnight generally...

 

 

Let me tell you Deker you haven't thought that one through either because for a fact you`d be liable for prosecution as well as the land owner if you left any carcass on any land that you had shot.

Even if the Deer had died of natural causes and wasn't disposed of correctly he the land owner would still be liable for prosecution.

My understanding it that your quite a wasteful person in more way`s than one. There`s no way any reputable game dealer would put any of your Venison into the food chain so my thoughts are that you must process the snotty bits for yourself and friends. Again what a waste and a shame and in my opinion it has more to do with calibre of gun and the land that your allowed to shoot it on.

If im correct i recall you have a 308? Is that just for the range? Because opportunist springs to mind with the use of the varmint calibre and rounds for dispatching problem Deer..

 

I say again gentlemen please chill out. I started an academic enquiry about ammo types and I find myself up to my arse in crocodiles. Please don't hijack my thread. If you want to fight do it on your own ground. DON'T shit on my doorstep.

 

Ric

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I said the animal is destroyed, you do not get a clean carcase, I did not say the meat is useless

You are also demonstrating a serious lack of understanding of the countryside and how nature works!!

Any and all unwanted parts are left discreetly on site ....a WHOLE deer will disappear in 7 days top

 

Deker let me just address my "understanding". I own shooting rights and I also lease shooting rights for everything from Snipe to Red deer, that means if I so wanted I could take any one from here, give them authority to stalk deer off my own back and they could apply to their police force for a .308 and be granted one with in a week or so. I hold a DSC1 & DSC2 which means I can mentor them to the point where they can go it alone. I am a full time pest controller qualified by the BPCA to both level 2&3 which not only means many extremely large and prestigious business take my opinion very seriously and act on my advice, it also means I fully understand the way in which nature works but more importantly I also know and understand the law with regards to leaving dead animals rotting in a work place, it might come as a surprise but the HSE do take a serious interest in farms and as you are acting as a 'professional' I was very interested in the way in which you claim to dispose of carcasses, your explanation has just confirmed what I already knew. As for 7 days, I am surprised DEFRA hasn't gone down that avenue with regards to farm stock but being the professional I am more than sure you know the law and DEFRA's take on such issues. I have no wish to argue with a tub thumper but may I remind you of what you actualy stated "If you intend to eat it forget V-Max, meat damage is awesome!".

 

John

 

FFS... you just can't read can you ...yes... meat damage is awsome, if you shoot them in the backside you are likely to destroy both rear legs...so DON'T, and just where does it say I left the carcase on site??? You were getting a lesson which I feel you still lack understanding of!

 

And don't give me this disposal nonsense, if you seriously expect me to believe you remove EVERY dead rat mouse etc from site and dispose of them through properly controlled systems you are not part of the real pest control world! You certainly do not work for Rentokil or Cannon!

 

And don't start all this I got this and that ....!! I am BPCA/RSPH level 2 as well, and I AM a Deer Mentor for Thames Valley and the Met, and likely Wilts shortly, I run my own Game & Vermin Control company and personally do SHOOTING work for National companies, the MoD and Government, I DO NOT PAY to shoot deer or anything else. I am Secretary of a Home Office approved shooting club at Bisley, spent nearly 10 years as a shooting coach, etc etc .... and.... so f****** what!!!

 

I suppose you will want to pop out to the boys room next to see who has the biggest prick!

 

Nearly a week now I've been stuck in reading this ****, the lunatics are trying to take over the asylum.....Roll on when I am over my Swine Flu (Cold) and can get out into the countryside again!!!!

 

Cheers

 

PS ...you DO NOT need a DSC1 or 2 to be a Deer Mentor! I suspect there are a number of other things as well but I am getting seriously bored with you..so here endeth the lesson!

 

But... feel free to PM me if you would like any further help or advice and I'll arrange some tuition for you! :bye::bye:

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Unfortunately for your argument, the lack of the words 'polymer tipped' in legislation makes jack all difference, because, as I have said many times and you seem incapable of grasping, they are covered by the term hollow point.

 

As I presumed, you can not supply any legislative information backing up your opinion that Polymer tipped bullets are defined by UK law as soft or hollow nosed.

Could you please supply ANY manufacturer data for V-max that states the bullets are either soft or hollow pointed bullets?

 

John

Go on www.nosler.com

 

Have a look at the picture of the bullet. You will find that it has a polymer tip up front, behind which there is a bloody great cavity. Therefore by definition it is HOLLOW, therefore it is a HOLLOW POINT!

 

The fact that it is not what you or I would qualify as a hollow point matters not, we are dealing with a piece of legislation which at no point defines what it terms soft or hollow point. Given that no definition exists, we can see by implication that expanding ammunition is implied. More than this cannot be implied or presumed from the Act, and therefore, if the bullet has a hollow point of any kind, then it qualifies. At no point is the term hollow point defined as "hollow nose with no covering", or words to that effect.

 

Ergo, we must take the wording literally, and therefore, polymer tip with hollow point = hollow point for the purpose of the Act.

 

Can you supply any legislation that outlaws their use? Very much doubt it given the plethora of polymer tips on the market, specifically for deer and deer-sized game...

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Go on www.nosler.com

 

Do nosler make V-max? Didn't think you had any ACTUAL legislation or documentation that provided proof that V-max are in fact either hollow or soft pointed bullets and why is that? Well because V-max are neither.

Again until you can provide certifiable proof and not just your opinion that V-max are in fact deer legal, I would suggest refraining from using the bullets.

 

John

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FFS...

 

Deker, there was no reason at all to swear. You my man are full of the proverbial and anyone on this or any other forum who has spent any real time managing deer will know this. I have nothing at all to prove to you or anyone else as I have reached the dizzy heights of as far as I can go in the UK with regards to shooting & stalking.

You have much to learn but not from me as I wouldn't want you in 100 miles of any land I shoot over. So you keep doing what you do and keep making me smile with your "professional attitude" .

Any and all unwanted parts are left discreetly on site ....a WHOLE deer will disappear in 7 days

 

Your one funny guy.

 

John

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FFS...

 

Deker, there was no reason at all to swear. You my man are full of the proverbial and anyone on this or any other forum who has spent any real time managing deer will know this. I have nothing at all to prove to you or anyone else as I have reached the dizzy heights of as far as I can go in the UK with regards to shooting & stalking.

You have much to learn but not from me as I wouldn't want you in 100 miles of any land I shoot over. So you keep doing what you do and keep making me smile with your "professional attitude" .

Any and all unwanted parts are left discreetly on site ....a WHOLE deer will disappear in 7 days

 

Your one funny guy.

 

John

 

You simply aren't clever enough...where did I swear..be careful now, show me a swear word....and don't make assumptions... read into things what you like but others will read something else!!!

 

Perhaps you will be good enough to point out which part of the underlined bold part above says I left a carcase on site!!

 

And why not respond to the rest of my last post whilst you are at it...

 

And you are not in the least bit funny, and simply have no understanding a Deer Vermin Control! I do NOT manage deer and have no need to, I do not go deer stalking in the accepted sense, I eradicate them, now which parts are you struggling to understand??

 

One thing you are right about, I do have a lot to learn, most days I learn something, it is a never ending process for most of us, but apparently you "have reached the dizzy heights of as far as I can go in the UK with regards to shooting & stalking". That's the problem with a DSC1/2, know it all don't you when you get that :notworthy::doh: !!

 

OK..I've got the idea..you want the last word....well go on then, it's yours, bore us with another misquote or assumption, I really am losing the will to live... :bye::bye:

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