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RicW

Expanding ammunition

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Having followed a lot of threads on this, it is clear to me that using fragmenting rounds to shoot deer is at best counter-productive. The tissue damage caused by a V-Max or Accu-tip destroys a lot of meat. Now, what intrigues me is the legal position. According to the Home Office and Met sites, Muntjac and CWD are not included in the regs about shooting deer in England & Wales, nor in the Scottish rules. (Although you must use a calibre of sufficient power to ensure a clean kill.)

 

HOWEVER for shooting Roe, Fallow, Sika and Red the requirement is that "controlled expansion" rounds must be used. So does fragmenting ammo count as "controlled expansion"? To me that term should mean semi-jacketed hollow point which stays in one piece but on impact the lead core rolls back round the jacket into a mushroom shape, which will result in a single wound channel with all the kinetic energy of the round transferred to the central nervous system by hydraulic shock. Fragmenting rounds could explode on impact, causing major superficial wounds but failing to resilt in a one shot drop.

 

If I'm wrong on any of this don't go off on one, just explain why I'm wrong!

 

Thanks pipple

 

Ric

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Ric

 

This is a Hornets nest, mainly because you are likely to get a lot of idiots replying who have never shot a deer in their lives but know it all, and get all pompous and riotous because they read something somewhere and are simply trying to score Brownie points.

 

Muntjac and CWD are Deer AND come under the 1991 Deer Act and 2007 Amendment, but are also classed as vermin, not so much the CWD now, as for some peculiar reason we have given a Non indigenous species protection, which, in effect, under the Wildlife and Countryside Act should actually be removed from this country altogether! Another thread perhaps.

 

First...I know of no definition of controlled expansion which has been tested in the courts! Perhaps someone else does!

 

Second, the appropriate weight and Calibre of V-max is a SUPERB deer killing tool, you will have heard many a tale of deer running, sometimes a long way after being shot, NOT with a V-Max, you do so much damage they are dead before they can fall! So, for a Humane kill there is no argument about V-Max, ...... that being the case ..what is the argument about concerning controlled expansion??

 

If you intend to eat it forget V-Max, meat damage is awesome!

 

I'll just go and put the tin hat on...

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Ric

 

This is a Hornets nest, mainly because you are likely to get a lot of idiots replying who have never shot a deer in their lives but know it all, and get all pompous and riotous because they read something somewhere and are simply trying to score Brownie points.

 

Muntjac and CWD are Deer AND come under the 1991 Deer Act and 2007 Amendment, but are also classed as vermin, not so much the CWD now, as for some peculiar reason we have given a Non indigenous species protection, which, in effect, under the Wildlife and Countryside Act should actually be removed from this country altogether! Another thread perhaps.

 

First...I know of no definition of controlled expansion which has been tested in the courts! Perhaps someone else does!

 

Second, the appropriate weight and Calibre of V-max is a SUPERB deer killing tool, you will have heard many a tale of deer running, sometimes a long way after being shot, NOT with a V-Max, you do so much damage they are dead before they can fall! So, for a Humane kill there is no argument about V-Max, ...... that being the case ..what is the argument about concerning controlled expansion??

 

If you intend to eat it forget V-Max, meat damage is awesome!

 

I'll just go and put the tin hat on...

 

Groan

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Second, the appropriate weight and Calibre of V-max is a SUPERB deer killing tool, you will have heard many a tale of deer running, sometimes a long way after being shot, NOT with a V-Max, you do so much damage they are dead before they can fall! So, for a Humane kill there is no argument about V-Max,

 

V-max can and do crater on deer, so for a humane kill you are right, there is no need to take risks, stay away from v-max.

"idiots replying who have never shot a deer in their lives but know it all, and get all pompous and riotous because they read something somewhere and are simply trying to score Brownie points." if a lot of people disagree with you, that does not necessarily make them inexperienced, you should really understand you are not the only person in the world who shoots deer or does a lot of rifle shooting, indeed there are plenty around.

 

 

John

Edited by HUnter_zero

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Having followed a lot of threads on this, it is clear to me that using fragmenting rounds to shoot deer is at best counter-productive. The tissue damage caused by a V-Max or Accu-tip destroys a lot of meat. Now, what intrigues me is the legal position. According to the Home Office and Met sites, Muntjac and CWD are not included in the regs about shooting deer in England & Wales, nor in the Scottish rules. (Although you must use a calibre of sufficient power to ensure a clean kill.)

 

HOWEVER for shooting Roe, Fallow, Sika and Red the requirement is that "controlled expansion" rounds must be used. So does fragmenting ammo count as "controlled expansion"? To me that term should mean semi-jacketed hollow point which stays in one piece but on impact the lead core rolls back round the jacket into a mushroom shape, which will result in a single wound channel with all the kinetic energy of the round transferred to the central nervous system by hydraulic shock. Fragmenting rounds could explode on impact, causing major superficial wounds but failing to resilt in a one shot drop.

 

If I'm wrong on any of this don't go off on one, just explain why I'm wrong!

 

Thanks pipple

 

Ric

This has been done before, but here we go again...

 

Legally, the bullet must be of hollow or soft point construction. That's the wording. V-max count because they have a hollow point, with a plastic tip to guarantee a more uniform expansion.

 

Depending on the jacket thickness, this may also end up making it so violent as to be considered fragmenting. however, from a purely legal standpoint there is nothing wrong with them.

 

Then we come to the humane kill arguments...

 

First up - this section applies to roe, CWD and muntjac, as these are the deer species which are relatively small and thus do not take much penetration to ensure a clean kill.

 

Some say that a fragmenting bullet won't penetrate sufficiently to get to the vital organs, and that if it does, meat damage will ensure such kills are pretty pointless.

 

Meat damage is pretty intense with a heart/lung shot with V-max or similar, can't argue. But of course, you can shoot them in the neck, when you need little penetration and violent expansion to ensure massive internal hemorrhage - v-max is perfect for that one!

 

Regarding the penetration, well, Deker's got a roe buck in his freezer that I donated, that took a 70 NBT straight through the front shoulder. Just the right amount of penetration, and one instantly dead deer.

 

So they definitely do work, they definitely are legal.

 

On bigger species you get polymer-tip bullets with thicker jackets for slower expansion, these are ideal because they expand more reliably than soft points and they are considerably better ballistically so you can shoot them at longer ranges more accurately.

 

All that said - would I recommend a lightweight varmint bullet for use on deer? Nope. Would I shoot a roe or muntjac with one assuming I can get a suitably good vantage point to place a bullet accurately? Yep! Will bambi fall over on the spot as if hit by a freight train? More than likely!

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Second, the appropriate weight and Calibre of V-max is a SUPERB deer killing tool, you will have heard many a tale of deer running, sometimes a long way after being shot, NOT with a V-Max, you do so much damage they are dead before they can fall! So, for a Humane kill there is no argument about V-Max,

 

V-max can and do crater on deer, so for a humane kill you are right, there is no need to take risks, stay away from v-max.

"idiots replying who have never shot a deer in their lives but know it all, and get all pompous and riotous because they read something somewhere and are simply trying to score Brownie points." if a lot of people disagree with you, that does not necessarily make them inexperienced, you should really understand you are not the only person in the world who shoots deer or does a lot of rifle shooting, indeed there are plenty around.

 

 

John

 

 

Chap, please read it carefully, especially the bit that was deliberately underlined!

 

And I totally accept that there are a lot of people on here that shoot a lot of deer, many of them more than me. I have actually been out with some of them, and always learn something, but I suspect there are few who have hit them with such a variety of calibres or types of ammo that I have, so I speak from a point of some extensive terminal ballistic experience on deer! I didn't read it, nobody told me, I did it!

 

The point I was trying to make is kiddies with BB guns laying down the moral high ground on deer piss me off!

 

I am surprised they have not turned up yet!

 

ATB! :thumbs:

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Guest vimto.

Reliability is the name of the game with Deer control of any species as well as choosing the correct tools for the job in hand.

The Vmax projectile is mostly used by either pretender`s or opportunist hunters to kill Deer..

No honorable stalking man would reload or indeed purchase or acquire ammunition that was designed to fragmentate up on penetration to control Deer with either indigenous or not.

Only this week i have purchased two boxes of 95g Vmax for Fox control i also have two boxes of SST`s in 129g and those will be used for Deer.

If i can put it bluntly Deker with regards me picking the correct tool for the job then arse an elbow comes to mind when reading some other folks posts on the subject..

Irrelevant of calibre..

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Thanks all. I was mainly curious about the legal definition of "controlled expansion". Seems to be another of those vague legal terms which can be interpreted any old which way. Bit like Mr L's favourite subject about FEOs and FACs!

 

It strikes me (unfortunate phrase) that if you are going out for deer you would use heavier "slow" expansion rounds but if Charley pops up he won't live long enough to regret it; if you are after Charley you will be loaded with light fragmenting rounds, but if you get an opportunity at a small deer, and can get the right shot, venison is on the menu - if, of course your ticket is conditioned for deer.

 

Fair summary?

 

Two last points. Does the .240 minimum for deer in England and Wales apply to CWD and Muntjac? I'm still not quite clear on this one.

Also whatever happened to "Reynard" as a nickname for foxes? Having lived many years in Quorn - yes, that's as in ". . .Hunt" - I ought to know but I'm not on speaking terms with Ol' Jug Ears and his ilk.

 

Ric

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Thanks all. I was mainly curious about the legal definition of "controlled expansion". Seems to be another of those vague legal terms which can be interpreted any old which way.

Two last points. Does the .240 minimum for deer in England and Wales apply to CWD and Muntjac? Ric

 

V-max are neither hollow or soft point in construction. Anyone who has the most basic of knowledge can explain why that is, it would be grossly absurd to explain other wise and akin to suggesting FMJ bullets are soft points with a bit of copper to protect the soft tip. V-max do not expand in a predictable manner. V-max are not marketed, recommended or sold by the manufacture for deer shooting. As such V-max are not suited to the purpose, it is plainly that simple, no grey just plain old black and white.

The .240 minimum calibre for deer: [E&W] Muntjac and Chinese Water deer a minimum calibre of .220 inches and a ME of 1000 fl.lb with a bullet weight of 50 grains or more, everything else reverts back to .240 + 1700 ft.lb ME.

 

John

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Thanks all. I was mainly curious about the legal definition of "controlled expansion". Seems to be another of those vague legal terms which can be interpreted any old which way.

Two last points. Does the .240 minimum for deer in England and Wales apply to CWD and Muntjac? Ric

 

V-max are neither hollow or soft point in construction. Anyone who has the most basic of knowledge can explain why that is, it would be grossly absurd to explain other wise and akin to suggesting FMJ bullets are soft points with a bit of copper to protect the soft tip. V-max do not expand in a predictable manner. V-max are not marketed, recommended or sold by the manufacture for deer shooting. As such V-max are not suited to the purpose, it is plainly that simple, no grey just plain old black and white.

The .240 minimum calibre for deer: [E&W] Muntjac and Chinese Water deer a minimum calibre of .220 inches and a ME of 1000 fl.lb with a bullet weight of 50 grains or more, everything else reverts back to .240 + 1700 ft.lb ME.

 

John

Unfortunately John you are wrong here, the V-max and similar type of bullet is included in either definition.

 

Firstly, the plastic tip is considerably softer than FMJ and could easily be argued to be a 'soft' point (although I'd never do so because ... ). Secondly, bullet DOES have a hollow point - beneath the polymer tip is a cavity to allow the tip to initiate the expansion. It's nothing like the situation you describe with FMJ, which is blatantly different.

 

The ballistic tip design is an enhancement of a tradition soft point, with the polymer tip acting as a wedge to give a more uniform and repeatable expansion upon impact. They are 100% counted in any definition of expanding ammunition, hence why you need this on your ticket to buy the damn things.

 

We also need to remember here that the law does not differentiate between polymer tips designed for deer, and polymer tips designed for varmints. Consequently both are legal for deer, but the deer-specific ones are obviously more reliable.

 

I know I won't convince you of the suitability of v-max tips for deer; that's fine with me because the deer that keep falling over seem convinced to me. However, I will continue to argue the legal point because this particular one is pretty simple.

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Thanks all. I was mainly curious about the legal definition of "controlled expansion". Seems to be another of those vague legal terms which can be interpreted any old which way.

Two last points. Does the .240 minimum for deer in England and Wales apply to CWD and Muntjac? Ric

 

V-max are neither hollow or soft point in construction. Anyone who has the most basic of knowledge can explain why that is, it would be grossly absurd to explain other wise and akin to suggesting FMJ bullets are soft points with a bit of copper to protect the soft tip. V-max do not expand in a predictable manner. V-max are not marketed, recommended or sold by the manufacture for deer shooting. As such V-max are not suited to the purpose, it is plainly that simple, no grey just plain old black and white.

The .240 minimum calibre for deer: [E&W] Muntjac and Chinese Water deer a minimum calibre of .220 inches and a ME of 1000 fl.lb with a bullet weight of 50 grains or more, everything else reverts back to .240 + 1700 ft.lb ME.

 

John

 

Ahem. The Mark VII .303 British Army round had a full copper jacket to comply with the Hague Convention. The blunt lead core stopped short of the nose of the jacket, the hollow space being filled with paper. Admittedly this was to give a rearward bias to the centre of gravity so the round would keyhole on impact, causing massive tissue damage but even so . . .! Rumour has it that the paper was sterilised which seems a bit of an exercise in futility.

 

Seriously, thanks John. It's all theory with me until I leave uni and can apply for a FAC, but my view is that the more you understand the theory behind the practice the better will be your practical ability. Not everyone's position I know.

 

Ric

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Thanks all. I was mainly curious about the legal definition of "controlled expansion". Seems to be another of those vague legal terms which can be interpreted any old which way.

Two last points. Does the .240 minimum for deer in England and Wales apply to CWD and Muntjac? Ric

 

V-max are neither hollow or soft point in construction. Anyone who has the most basic of knowledge can explain why that is, it would be grossly absurd to explain other wise and akin to suggesting FMJ bullets are soft points with a bit of copper to protect the soft tip. V-max do not expand in a predictable manner. V-max are not marketed, recommended or sold by the manufacture for deer shooting. As such V-max are not suited to the purpose, it is plainly that simple, no grey just plain old black and white.

The .240 minimum calibre for deer: [E&W] Muntjac and Chinese Water deer a minimum calibre of .220 inches and a ME of 1000 fl.lb with a bullet weight of 50 grains or more, everything else reverts back to .240 + 1700 ft.lb ME.

 

John

 

 

 

It doesn't say on a RPG it's suitable for deer either, As such a RPG is not suited to the purpose, it is plainly that simple, no grey just plain old black and white. :hmm: Glad that is resolved then!!

 

I'm not telling you how to shoot deer and I don't give a **** if you have another opinion or want to do it another way, so kindly do not tell me all the deer I have shot with the appropriate V-Max are alive and injured, because V-Max are not suited to the purpose, they were destroyed! You really need to understand the difference between killing VERY efficiently, quickly and safely and .... leaving a clean carcase for market!

 

I use V-Max as appropriate in the right tool in the right circumstances. The last thing you need when the deer is munching their way through £2000 worth of plants on the estate garden next to the house and stables and cottages and barns etc etc is a round that goes clean through still carrying a lot of energy...and you get no thanks from the owner if you leave it to eat more as you didn't shoot it! Circumstances and situations, thats why I have so many tools, such a variety of ammo and get work!

 

I do not take out paid shooters on country estate stalks and I have no vested interest in leaving a deer community to thrive, my task is eradication. The right V-Max is Brilliant at stopping them, I have never had a runner!

 

This whole concept of Deer Vermin Control seems alien to a large number of stalkers, well, get real and open your eyes, round here there are so many deer they are a pain in the arse and cause a lot of damage!

 

Good job I have a decent Tin Hat..ATB :thumbs:

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Guest vimto.

It should`nt matter if a round carry`s straight through the beast still retaining energy because you`d have a safe back stop before pulling the trigger. Would`nt you??

But any way Deker tell me what type and how many Deer legal (England only) weapons you have in your cabinet?

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Unfortunately John you are wrong here, the V-max and similar type of bullet is included in either definition.

 

When you can produce legislation that either defines polymer tipped bullets as either hollow or soft point or ANY legislation that condones the use of polymer tipped bullets for deer control then you might have a point to make, other wise it's just your opinion, which is wrong.

 

John

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I do not take out paid shooters on country estate stalks and I have no vested interest in leaving a deer community to thrive, my task is eradication. The right V-Max is Brilliant at stopping them, I have never had a runner!

 

This whole concept of Deer Vermin Control seems alien to a large number of stalkers, well, get real and open your eyes, round here there are so many deer they are a pain in the arse and cause a lot of damage!

 

Deker, you claim to control deer as "vermin" and as such openly admit that the meat is useless, so as you also claim to shoot fair numbers of deer could you please explain how and where you dispose of the carcasses?

 

John

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