should stalking be made cheaper?

[pigeon640 0]

Published Date: 27 September 2009

 

LANDOWNERS should offer cut-price hunting trips and ditch the sport's elite image in a bid to tackle soaring deer numbers, according to a top government adviser on conservation.

The move would wipe out poaching almost overnight, it is claimed, by allowing locals to legally bag "one for the pot".

 

But estate owners have warned that cheap hunting away-days could lead to untrained gunmen being let loose on hillsides, posing a

danger to themselves and others.

 

Professor Douglas MacMillan, head of the School of Conservation at Kent University and a long-standing adviser to the Scottish Government on countryside issues, says that the sport, which can cost an average of £500 a day, must be opened up to a wider range of people to increase the number of deer being shot.

 

Scotland should follow the example of Norway, he says, where most deer hunting is carried out by young working class men, and deer-hunting days are on offer for as little as £10. If more deer are not culled, Professor MacMillan believes their numbers will continue to rocket, bringing more environmental damage to Scotland's countryside.

 

MacMillan's intervention comes as the Scottish Government's Wildlife and Natural Environment Bill, aimed at modernising deer management, continues its passage through parliament.

 

Deer in Scotland are legally res nullus – not owned by anyone – so the right to kill them rests with the owner or occupier of the land.

 

MacMillan said: "The current system is not working. There are too many deer out there, and not enough of them are being shot. Part of the problem is that landowners promote the idea that deer hunting is about solitude, privacy and exclusivity. That is an idea that needs to be changed."

 

But landowners have reacted with scepticism at the prospect of opening up their estates to large numbers of hunters. Charles Fford, whose family own the Arran estate, said: "There are a lot of reasons why this would not be practical. You can't have Rab Nesbitt wandering off into the hills to shoot a deer. How would he get it home for a start?

 

"My main concern would be animal welfare. When a stalker goes out on the hill, he selects those animals that are old or infirm, and they are shot cleanly. It would be disadvantageous to have a lot of people on the hill shooting deer, simply because the animals need to be culled professionally."

 

A spokesman for the Scottish Gamekeepers Association, which represents stalkers, insisted experts are best equipped to cull the animals.

 

He added: "The work during the winter is often done in very challenging conditions and needs to be carried out by experts.

 

"This idea to get more people in doesn't seem like a logical or practical solution. And if you have high numbers of people on the hill stalking, that in itself could cause problems. They might be running about doing daft things, and that could affect the deer. It could actually make it more difficult to cull the numbers required"

 

Deerstalking became a sport in the Victorian era with many estates encouraging the growth of deer herds to provide profits.

 

But despite efforts by landowners to reduce numbers of the browsing animals, in the abscence of predators, stocks have continued to rise in Scotland and there are now an estimates 350,000 to 500,000 red deer roaming the Highlands, with their numbers doubling since 1945. Their growing number are causing serious damage to the environment, hampering efforts to regenerate native woodlands.

 

Conservation groups and the government agree that hunting is the best way to reduce deer numbers but MacMillan, who worked as a countryside scientist in Scotland for 20 years, acting as an adviser to the government on deer-related issues. says there is an endemic resistance among landowners to opening up the sport. He interviewed 127 landowners for his study, and found that many relied on family, friends and business contacts to carry out the shooting on their estates, excluding anyone who lacked the necessary social networks. The figures seem to support this view, with less than 0.001 per cent of the population – 3,500 people – taking part in deer hunting, according to the most recent survey in 2004. Those that do take part are usually white, over 50 and in the upper social classes, claims the study. They are also able to pay up to £1,000-a-day fees for stalking.

 

A survey by the British Association for Shooting and Conservation showed that 65 per cent of their members would like to go deer hunting, but were not able to do so. The main reason is they lacked the contacts within "hunting circles" to get a chance to hunt deer.

 

Professor MacMillan's report, titled Conservation With A Gun, argues that low-cost trips trips could be carried out during an extended "hind culling" season, where female animals are shot from December through to the early spring, so that it does not interfere with the lucrative autumn stag hunting season.

 

An added bonus would be an end to the age-old battle between poacher and gamekeeper that has been played out in the Highlands for centuries.

 

MacMillan said: "Most poaching goes on at night, is very dangerous, and has the effect of lowering venison prices, because the meat is distributed at a lower cost because it is on the black market. Offering cut price hunting would solve these problems overnight."

 

 

so dose he know what hes talking about or not your call let me know

 

i do think stalking is over priced a little but do know

the stalkers have to make a living but wouldnt they make more by taking less and having more punters ???

 

 

cheers kirky

Edited October 10, 2009 by pigeon640

[2434me 13]

My first answer without thinking about it too much would be that it wouldn't work !

 

It wouldn't stop poaching !!

 

 

If accompanied stalking then the landowners would have to employ more people =more outlay,accommodation etc etc .

If UN accompanied ,too many inexperienced people on the hill to mess it up for people that do know what they are doing .Plus how many people have the equipment to get beasts off the hill properly ?

 

I don't know exactly how much it would cost to employ a full time stalker on your hill ground to include vehicles larders house ect ,but you wouldn't get much change from £50,000+++ after the cost of setting it up .

That's a lot of stalking trips to break even if you reduce the cost !

[pigeon640 0]

My first answer without thinking about it too much would be that it wouldn't work !

 

It wouldn't stop poaching !!

 

 

If accompanied stalking then the landowners would have to employ more people =more outlay,accommodation etc etc .

If UN accompanied ,too many inexperienced people on the hill to mess it up for people that do know what they are doing .Plus how many people have the equipment to get beasts off the hill properly ?

 

I don't know exactly how much it would cost to employ a full time stalker on your hill ground to include vehicles larders house ect ,but you wouldn't get much change from £50,000+++ after the cost of setting it up .

That's a lot of stalking trips to break even if you reduce the cost !

 

 

know what your saying but isnt the countryside and shooting about keeping the balance which just isnt happening just now

 

so surley somthing neads to change

 

wouldnt it not be good for stalkers to take more peolpe out stalking for less money instead of it being by large a posh mans sport

thus helping more country folks to shoot and eat deer

 

kirky

[wireviz 8]

I feel it could work with out any problem we have 3000 fully trained deer stalkers at this very minute what is stopping this number doubling the costs. Cash and elitism have always stopped the average Joe getting in to stalking. There would be no problems with the idea except that the top men don't want it. Its down to one thing Greed.

[Malt 379]

I feel it could work with out any problem we have 3000 fully trained deer stalkers at this very minute what is stopping this number doubling the costs. Cash and elitism have always stopped the average Joe getting in to stalking. There would be no problems with the idea except that the top men don't want it. Its down to one thing Greed.

I'd agree with that, even though I know nothing about deer stalking. I also don't like the comments about 'Rab C Nesbit' stalking. Says a lot about how the landed gentry view the rest of the population. If you don't own land or have a lot of money to shoot on said land, you're Rab C Nesbit.

 

Almost makes me want to get a big dog and 'relieve' them of a few deer out of spite.... (Almost! )

[2434me 13]

My first answer without thinking about it too much would be that it wouldn't work !

 

It wouldn't stop poaching !!

 

 

If accompanied stalking then the landowners would have to employ more people =more outlay,accommodation etc etc .

If UN accompanied ,too many inexperienced people on the hill to mess it up for people that do know what they are doing .Plus how many people have the equipment to get beasts off the hill properly ?

 

I don't know exactly how much it would cost to employ a full time stalker on your hill ground to include vehicles larders house ect ,but you wouldn't get much change from £50,000+++ after the cost of setting it up .

That's a lot of stalking trips to break even if you reduce the cost !

 

 

know what your saying but isn't the countryside and shooting about keeping the balance which just isn't happening just now

 

so surely something needs to change

 

wouldn't it not be good for stalkers to take more people out stalking for less money instead of it being by large a posh mans sport

thus helping more country folks to shoot and eat deer

 

kirky

 

The key to the population is the Female ! Hind stalking is available at far less than the prices quoted for Stags . So there may be some more opportunities in that direction .

As for eating venison .There are some people who want the carcase and pay the market price for it ,but that as well as the stalking cost still puts it out of the easy money bracket for a lot of people who want to shoot cheaply !

The British public are notorious for NOT eating game or venison etc , the majority of it all goes abroad. If we could build a home market for it ,we could shift more that way .

 

Posh mans sport ???

The top end of any sporting activity will always command the top prices . But as a percentage of all the stalking in the UK ,the posh bit is dwarfed by the number of ordinary people (like a lot of guys on here !) who have their bit of stalking or syndicate and farms where they shoot quite happily at whatever the cost is .

 

I think if we opened it up like the American way of public land we would have a logistical nightmare on our hands,and be in a far worse position than we are now .The professional stalker is still the best way to reduce the numbers as long as he is given the back-up to do it . Taking a client out to shoot a few hinds is Sport !On the other hand "Culling" hinds is bloody hard work and the stalker knows how best to achieve his numbers.He will be able to tell you what kind of help he needs most on his ground.

[tommydeer 2]

My first answer without thinking about it too much would be that it wouldn't work !

 

It wouldn't stop poaching !!

 

 

If accompanied stalking then the landowners would have to employ more people =more outlay,accommodation etc etc .

If UN accompanied ,too many inexperienced people on the hill to mess it up for people that do know what they are doing .Plus how many people have the equipment to get beasts off the hill properly ?

 

I don't know exactly how much it would cost to employ a full time stalker on your hill ground to include vehicles larders house ect ,but you wouldn't get much change from £50,000+++ after the cost of setting it up .

That's a lot of stalking trips to break even if you reduce the cost !

 

 

know what your saying but isn't the countryside and shooting about keeping the balance which just isn't happening just now

 

so surely something needs to change

 

wouldn't it not be good for stalkers to take more people out stalking for less money instead of it being by large a posh mans sport

thus helping more country folks to shoot and eat deer

 

kirky

 

The key to the population is the Female ! Hind stalking is available at far less than the prices quoted for Stags . So there may be some more opportunities in that direction .

As for eating venison .There are some people who want the carcase and pay the market price for it ,but that as well as the stalking cost still puts it out of the easy money bracket for a lot of people who want to shoot cheaply !

The British public are notorious for NOT eating game or venison etc , the majority of it all goes abroad. If we could build a home market for it ,we could shift more that way .

 

Posh mans sport ???

The top end of any sporting activity will always command the top prices . But as a percentage of all the stalking in the UK ,the posh bit is dwarfed by the number of ordinary people (like a lot of guys on here !) who have their bit of stalking or syndicate and farms where they shoot quite happily at whatever the cost is .

 

I think if we opened it up like the American way of public land we would have a logistical nightmare on our hands,and be in a far worse position than we are now .The professional stalker is still the best way to reduce the numbers as long as he is given the back-up to do it . Taking a client out to shoot a few hinds is Sport !On the other hand "Culling" hinds is bloody hard work and the stalker knows how best to achieve his numbers.He will be able to tell you what kind of help he needs most on his ground.

 

Everyone will always have their own opinion on this matter, truth be told i completely agree with 2434me.

 

In America they can get away with it, its a vast Country. You imagine what it would be like in the UK which is overpopulated, people running around in bright vests everywhere with rifles

 

I dont think there is a national problem with deer management, i think many places have great sustainable deer management in place, like everything, its the places that have been relaxed about it or been neglected for a while that have resulted in bad publicity.

 

There is enough access for the average joe to go out hind/doe stalking and take a carcase home, whether it be accompanied or not.

 

People talk about it being expensive but what hobby isnt these days, look at fishing, golf etc!!

 

At the end of the day, people go to work and earn money to then go out and do their hobby. Some people are fortunate enough to make their living from their hobby....and then get slated for it!

[foxdropper 17,092]

If stalking is to be broken down yet again into a class issue then long may it be so .

The whole thing is about the right of the commen man to take game off private land and nothing to do with deer management .Right to roam if you like ,armed .The prices charged are there for a reason .Anything worth having is worth paying for ,simple .Likening it to America it stupid as their whole culture in places is based on hunting and the rights of a man to bear arms whereas we have to earn the right own a gun and rightly so .Leave stalking as it is in Scotland ,a trip of a lifetime for many and a way of life for those dedicated few .

[Malt 379]

The whole thing is about the right of the commen man to take game off private land and nothing to do with deer management .Right to roam if you like ,armed

Absolute bollocks, it's about controlling the number of deer. In case you didn't read the whole statement, the current system is totally inadequate and not having enough impact.

[pigeon640 0]

Deer in Scotland are legally res nullus – not owned by anyone –

 

so if the above is true why pay anyone for the right to shoot them as they dont own them ???

 

 

im not getting with this guys thinking at all

 

some good points in you guys postes thanks

 

kirky

[2434me 13]

Deer in Scotland are legally res nullus – not owned by anyone –

 

so if the above is true why pay anyone for the right to shoot them as they dont own them ???

 

 

im not getting with this guys thinking at all

 

some good points in you guys postes thanks

 

kirky

 

The pigeons in your avatar were not owned by anyone either !(untill they were dead ! )

[pigeon640 0]

Deer in Scotland are legally res nullus – not owned by anyone –

 

so if the above is true why pay anyone for the right to shoot them as they dont own them ???

 

 

im not getting with this guys thinking at all

 

some good points in you guys postes thanks

 

kirky

 

The pigeons in your avatar were not owned by anyone either !(untill they were dead ! )

 

point taken

 

kirky

Edited October 12, 2009 by pigeon640

[Dan Newcombe 58]

Deer dont belong to anyone until they are dead and at which point they belong to the person whose land they are on.

 

Its amazing how many people want something for nothing,

 

Id love to do more stalking on new land but i cant afford it so i stick to invites and theground that i have gained over the years.

 

Would you be prepared to take a pay cut so that people could have something for cheaper?

 

Someone has to loose out and its a selfish perspective that means someone else takes a hit in order for you to get cheaper sport.

 

Its the places that dont have stalkers on there that cant keep up with the deer populations. So get yourself over to the LACS, RSPB etc and ask them if you can shoot their deer. Otherwise, if you cant afford it dont do it!

[foxdropper 17,092]

The whole thing is about the right of the commen man to take game off private land and nothing to do with deer management .Right to roam if you like ,armed

Absolute bollocks, it's about controlling the number of deer. In case you didn't read the whole statement, the current system is totally inadequate and not having enough impact.

 

So its in black and white, therefore must be true .Wet behind the ears springs to mind

If you cant afford it ,tough .Leave it to those who can and tip the stalker properly

Long may the class divide be there to keep the Nesbits off the hill i say

Edited October 14, 2009 by foxdropper

[sniper#7 0]

mmm! unfortunately as in all walks of life there are those that don,t really belong that is to say that i have met some people that stalk and to be honest i have wondered how the hell they got a licence let alone any stalking rights.As for the cost well if you can afford a good rifle and scope ,bino's a 4by4, a quad or atv then you are on your way to being a proffessional stalker that is after you have atained your level one and level two dmq /paid for your insurance and hopefully got a good no. of years experience with someone who is also a professional.

The alternative is to go out hind stalking with a professional cull a good no. of deer and enjoy the experience for what is at the end of the day very good value.

 

Enjoy