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#16 HUnter_zero

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 05:54 pm

I have no idea who the Deker guy is but please do not listen to the fool.
If you want the bottom lines, yes the .22rf will kill foxes at 25 to 40 yards with head shots. The little .22 bullet does not react the same as a CF bullet. The .22rf is a little bit like hitting an animal with a hammer, you get bruising and tissue damage and if you hit a vital organ you will kill the animal but a centerfire bullet due to it's speed delivers a shock wave internally due to a massive wound channel. This shock transfers through out the animals body and in to vital organs BUT never mind my waffle or the opposition of a dunce. Please refer to the Home office guidance to the Police, Chapter 13 clearly states that the .22rf is NOT a suitable for Fox control and is not a good reason to posses a firearm. It does however the .17rem & .22H as suitable. If your stuck on rim fires then you could look at the .22WMR which is good out to around 75-80 yards.


John

Edited by HUnter_zero, 23 August 2009 - 06:06 pm.


#17 HUnter_zero

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:05 pm

South Wales are pretty good. I asked them the question because I shoot in both South Wales Area and Dyfed-Powys's area. And even though they were happy enough that Vermin included Fox to them, they added a separate condition for just Fox to my FAC for me.



I have "vermin" on my .22rf but that was granted twenty odd years back and was told I could shoot foxes. My .243" has Deer & Fox but in general I too think that the South Wales dept are one of the most easy going of all firearms units. That said I had a reason to become involved with D&C and they were very helpful indeed. It was pleasing to note that the same FEO for one of my leases was still working for the department.

John

#18 Fidgety

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:09 pm

"Now I really am a qualified BPCA pest controller & deer mentor and I will say that the .22lr is NOT suitable for general fox control."

GENERAL fox control being the issue in question, no, it's not the best choice, but at short range and certain circumstances it's the perfect tool. Millions of foxes have been dropped sucessfully by the .22rf.

BPCA qualifications do not cover ballistics. Learn to accept other people's opinions.

#19 HUnter_zero

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:12 pm

Learn to accept other people's opinions.



I will, the Home offices.

John

#20 RicW

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:18 pm

Learn to accept other people's opinions.



I will, the Home offices.

John


Er . . . gentlemen, look at my post above,ok? And as the man said, let's all chill out a little
I may be Mr Armchair man but I do my research carefully
Ric

#21 SportingShooter

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:20 pm

South Wales are pretty good. I asked them the question because I shoot in both South Wales Area and Dyfed-Powys's area. And even though they were happy enough that Vermin included Fox to them, they added a separate condition for just Fox to my FAC for me.



I have "vermin" on my .22rf but that was granted twenty odd years back and was told I could shoot foxes. My .243" has Deer & Fox but in general I too think that the South Wales dept are one of the most easy going of all firearms units. That said I had a reason to become involved with D&C and they were very helpful indeed. It was pleasing to note that the same FEO for one of my leases was still working for the department.

John

I had Vermin on the HMR to begin with, but I also now have Fox specifically conditioned for it. I've had Fox on the .222 from the beginning but they were relatively reluctant to let me have "Vermin and Small Ground Game" as well. But I just asked them in a nice letter and after a conversation explaining my reasoning they agreed.

I know the three FEOs(That were) with South Wales, some are better than others to deal with but I stick my heels in and they normally comply.

#22 HUnter_zero

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:32 pm

relatively reluctant to let me have "Vermin and Small Ground Game"



I tried for "ground game" with no joy.

John

#23 SportingShooter

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:42 pm

relatively reluctant to let me have "Vermin and Small Ground Game"



I tried for "ground game" with no joy.

John
Mine gave in after reasoning with them that sometimes ground had to be cleared of both Fox and Rabbit and it was impractical for a lone shooter to have both rifles ;)

#24 Mr_Logic

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 07:36 pm

I can't be arsed to debate the legality of 22 RF on fox, save to say the only possible offence is the breach of terms of FAC. Whether this is going to apply is going to depend on your FAC, but the term 'vermin' is never defined for the purposes of the Condition, and foxes are considered by most to be vermin.

Make of this what you will.

However, in terms of effectiveness of the 22LR as a fox round, any who say it won't kill a fox cleanly are talking shit I'm afraid. Over the years I have shot numerous foxes with 22LR, and the simple point is this - keep the range under 70 yards, but the bullet in the head, and they go down like a sack of shit, without so much as a whimper. It's very effective, completely humane, and by using subsonic ammo you don't annoy people in a built up area with a loud centrefire rifle.

Like all things, if you don't like the calibre, or you can't shoot well enough to do the job cleanly, then use something else. But the simple fact remains (and it IS a fact, sorry, no arguing there) that the 22LR can be used humanely and reliably on Charlie.

#25 hiluxmk3

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 07:51 pm

I can't be arsed to debate the legality of 22 RF on fox, save to say the only possible offence is the breach of terms of FAC. Whether this is going to apply is going to depend on your FAC, but the term 'vermin' is never defined for the purposes of the Condition, and foxes are considered by most to be vermin.

Make of this what you will.

However, in terms of effectiveness of the 22LR as a fox round, any who say it won't kill a fox cleanly are talking shit I'm afraid. Over the years I have shot numerous foxes with 22LR, and the simple point is this - keep the range under 70 yards, but the bullet in the head, and they go down like a sack of shit, without so much as a whimper. It's very effective, completely humane, and by using subsonic ammo you don't annoy people in a built up area with a loud centrefire rifle.

Like all things, if you don't like the calibre, or you can't shoot well enough to do the job cleanly, then use something else. But the simple fact remains (and it IS a fact, sorry, no arguing there) that the 22LR can be used humanely and reliably on Charlie.

Do the job properly, get a CF on your FAC, and as for your noise issue "GET A MODERATOR" UNDER THE HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT no issuing force can refuse you a grant on your lisence for a moderator.
As i mentioned before get the right tools for the job if you want to start shooting FOXES, you wouldnt want any fox to suffer at your hands with a missplaced shot

#26 SportingShooter

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 08:31 pm

The bickering in this section is beginning to annoy me.....

.22LR will kill a Fox at the correct distance and shot placed in the correct place. Surely thats simple enough to understand. Its precisely the same with the HMR, put the shot in the right place, the Fox will die.

Fair enough, if you are not a competent shot and do not know your rifle, do not shoot at Foxes with a rimfire. However, if you are confident and you can place that bullet in the right place, there is no problem.

I've seen many Foxes run off after being shot with centrefires, no tool is perfect for any job. You can shoot a Roe with an Elephant gun, but shoot it in the wrong place and it will slowly bleed to death.

A moderator on a centrefire will not make the shot near as dammit silent. It cannot get rid of the crack of a supersonic round. A moderated .22LR as I'm sure you know will shoot near silent with Subsonic ammunition.

95% of my Foxes are shot with my .222, home loaded ballistic tips, and so far no Foxes have run anywhere. I also have my HMR specifically conditioned for Fox and I have used it to great effect in those irregular circumstances when a centrefire isn't practical.

#27 Mr_Logic

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:01 pm

The bickering in this section is beginning to annoy me.....

.22LR will kill a Fox at the correct distance and shot placed in the correct place. Surely thats simple enough to understand. Its precisely the same with the HMR, put the shot in the right place, the Fox will die.

Fair enough, if you are not a competent shot and do not know your rifle, do not shoot at Foxes with a rimfire. However, if you are confident and you can place that bullet in the right place, there is no problem.

I've seen many Foxes run off after being shot with centrefires, no tool is perfect for any job. You can shoot a Roe with an Elephant gun, but shoot it in the wrong place and it will slowly bleed to death.

A moderator on a centrefire will not make the shot near as dammit silent. It cannot get rid of the crack of a supersonic round. A moderated .22LR as I'm sure you know will shoot near silent with Subsonic ammunition.

95% of my Foxes are shot with my .222, home loaded ballistic tips, and so far no Foxes have run anywhere. I also have my HMR specifically conditioned for Fox and I have used it to great effect in those irregular circumstances when a centrefire isn't practical.

What he said.

One thing Hilux - I do have centrefires on my ticket for fox, and they're what I use for the task at hand. But I've used the 22LR on various places where I can't use a centrefire, and it works a treat.

#28 sully5328

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:10 pm

if you have vermin on your fac does that not cover you for shooting foxes with a rimfire. is a fox classed as vermin in the eyes of the police http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


Armchair man again. NO. Fox are now classed as medium quarry, and you are very unlikely to get a condition to use rimfire "for the purpose of " shooting foxes. If you have a rimfire for the "purpose of" killing "pest species" you may also get a condition for "occasional fox" . . . ie close range head shots. Seems about right to me.
Ric

Hells teeth i only asked a question.i hope your not implying that "im a armchair man". I regulary shoot rabbits and on occasion come acroos a fox on my shoot. if that occurs 12g with BBs. I would like a center fire but i at this present time i cant afford it. Therefore being only reasonably new to shooting i was only asking the question, I have spoken to many people on this subjesct as well as the various shooting organisatons. Its a very grey area all say a rimmie will do the job upto 70yrds with a head shot, but depends on your local force etc. Maybe the ACPO should get together and issue a policy.

#29 SportingShooter

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:20 pm

if you have vermin on your fac does that not cover you for shooting foxes with a rimfire. is a fox classed as vermin in the eyes of the police http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...


Armchair man again. NO. Fox are now classed as medium quarry, and you are very unlikely to get a condition to use rimfire "for the purpose of " shooting foxes. If you have a rimfire for the "purpose of" killing "pest species" you may also get a condition for "occasional fox" . . . ie close range head shots. Seems about right to me.
Ric

Hells teeth i only asked a question.i hope your not implying that "im a armchair man". I regulary shoot rabbits and on occasion come acroos a fox on my shoot. if that occurs 12g with BBs. I would like a center fire but i at this present time i cant afford it. Therefore being only reasonably new to shooting i was only asking the question, I have spoken to many people on this subjesct as well as the various shooting organisatons. Its a very grey area all say a rimmie will do the job upto 70yrds with a head shot, but depends on your local force etc. Maybe the ACPO should get together and issue a policy.
He's taking a stab at himself matey ;)

#30 Guest_john5_*

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:21 pm

I can't be arsed to debate the legality of 22 RF on fox, save to say the only possible offence is the breach of terms of FAC. Whether this is going to apply is going to depend on your FAC, but the term 'vermin' is never defined for the purposes of the Condition, and foxes are considered by most to be vermin.

Make of this what you will.

However, in terms of effectiveness of the 22LR as a fox round, any who say it won't kill a fox cleanly are talking shit I'm afraid. Over the years I have shot numerous foxes with 22LR, and the simple point is this - keep the range under 70 yards, but the bullet in the head, and they go down like a sack of shit, without so much as a whimper. It's very effective, completely humane, and by using subsonic ammo you don't annoy people in a built up area with a loud centrefire rifle.

Like all things, if you don't like the calibre, or you can't shoot well enough to do the job cleanly, then use something else. But the simple fact remains (and it IS a fact, sorry, no arguing there) that the 22LR can be used humanely and reliably on Charlie.


sorry about this but empty your inbox please mr logic


and i have killed foxes with a .22 rimfire quite well

Edited by john5, 23 August 2009 - 09:22 pm.



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