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Springers with no papers


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#16 farmerrich

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 08:45 am

And the FTCH/FTW thing.....it is only that one dog has been judged to have been the best dog on that particular day/test.....
It is just like you going on a shoot and beating or picking up and on one particular day so and so's dog worked best that day because he pulled off an amazing retrieve....or he flushed the best pheasants.....whatever.....
It is just 4 peoples opinions on who performed the best on that day.......
[/quote]

Thats not quite right, judges can choose to withhold 1st, 2nd or even 3rd if they are of the opinion that the dogs are not up to the required standard. The awarding of first place does not merely state that the dog was the best dog on the day in the judges opinion but that it was also of a high enough standard to gain an award.

#17 hily

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 12:53 pm

ok used springers to beat and shoot over for more years than i care to remember but only in the northeast and scotland i hav'nt come accross many working dogs without papers and to be honest i can only bring a few sprockers to mind so when it comes to dogs with no paperwork is this a regional thing . It has been sugested that only dogs that work in wales are able to tackle heavy going etc etc this is rubbish ! as it has been said before FT and the KC aren't perfect but the ped is a good indiction of the type of dog you can expect is it not the case that a lot of good stud dogs are used with bitches that the owner wants to take a pup from because he has a bitch he has worked and is very happy with. So both the sire and the dame have a proving track record .I think we all know not all pups from the same litter turn out to be good uns luck training and breeding can make a good worker and you need all three to get a good springer.The only springer i was ever offerd without any paperwork was of a keeper who left a litter brother and sister together and an accidental mateing happend the bitch was only 13 months old when she whelped ! so not all dogs without paperwork have been carefully selected for their working ability.one more point to have a litter reg with the kc costs a lot of time and money and i think that most people who go down this route have thought long and hard before producing a litter to sell as it aint all profit. as allways this is only my point of view.atb.

#18 hily

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 01:56 pm

If more of the gun dog lads were honest with themselves and did not worry about the ££££ and took some of the breeding principle s that some of the terrier and lurcher lads have about breeding workerx worker best to the best then the quality of our working gun dogs would rise ,but unfortunately this will never happen on a large scale as most gun dog men are more interested in FTCH on peds and the £££££££.

if terrier/lurcher people are so good at breeding why are thier so many of these dogs up for sale? and i don't mean pups! just look on this site alone.

#19 welshboy454

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:05 pm

ok used springers to beat and shoot over for more years than i care to remember but only in the northeast and scotland i hav'nt come accross many working dogs without papers and to be honest i can only bring a few sprockers to mind so when it comes to dogs with no paperwork is this a regional thing . It has been sugested that only dogs that work in wales are able to tackle heavy going etc etc this is rubbish ! as it has been said before FT and the KC aren't perfect but the ped is a good indiction of the type of dog you can expect is it not the case that a lot of good stud dogs are used with bitches that the owner wants to take a pup from because he has a bitch he has worked and is very happy with. So both the sire and the dame have a proving track record .I think we all know not all pups from the same litter turn out to be good uns luck training and breeding can make a good worker and you need all three to get a good springer.The only springer i was ever offerd without any paperwork was of a keeper who left a litter brother and sister together and an accidental mateing happend the bitch was only 13 months old when she whelped ! so not all dogs without paperwork have been carefully selected for their working ability.one more point to have a litter reg with the kc costs a lot of time and money and i think that most people who go down this route have thought long and hard before producing a litter to sell as it aint all profit. as allways this is only my point of view.atb.

I started this topic because of a trend I had noticed locally . 6 out of 8 dogs on our shoot are not KC reg- Used to be 8out of 8 kc reg springers.
It would have been 7 out of 8 if my offer to buy a dog I had seen working was accepted-(a 4 figure offer).

As far as working cover is concerned I asked this question of a KC Field Trial Judge-
Can a dog be made up to field trial champion but only ever won on soft ground and never faced heavy cover (brambles furze blackthorn )?

Answer "Yep and quite a few do - if you follow the circuit you will soon get a feel for which of the handlers prefer to run their dogs further North (Yorkshire and up) as these trials tend to be on more open ground (White grass, reeds, open areas) Whereas the trials on the estates in the South are primarily run on cover crops and large game strips, woodland and generally more enclosed ground."

His answer is revealing. I can understand problems of distance in traveling to different parts of the country but any trainers/handlers from the black country fringes only running their dogs up north makes you wonder why ?

#20 hily

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 07:15 am

if your basis for this topic is only from the shoot you are in and the lads that are agreaing with you are mostly from wales is this a trend in wales alone .yes the field trial judge is right a dog can be made up from working soft cover but he is only one judge and you must admit not all ftch dogs will get there by this route. So again you have at least a measure of the dog to some extent if it has a ped and again its down to buyer to get what he is looking for.NOW heres a thought why are english springers more populer than welsh springers? :whistling:

#21 welshboy454

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 08:04 am

if your basis for this topic is only from the shoot you are in and the lads that are agreaing with you are mostly from wales is this a trend in wales alone .yes the field trial judge is right a dog can be made up from working soft cover but he is only one judge and you must admit not all ftch dogs will get there by this route. So again you have at least a measure of the dog to some extent if it has a ped and again its down to buyer to get what he is looking for.NOW heres a thought why are english springers more populer than welsh springers? http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

Hily you are trying to be mischievious !
My experience is not based on just our shoot - I go beating in a few shoots and talking to other beaters it does seem to be an increasing trend that the kc reg papers are not valued as highly as you would think. For some reason people are voting on this issue by their actions ie relying more on their knowledge of the parents having seen them work. The first couple of posters agree so it is not an isolated matter limited to West Wales.
I have not said that all Ftch get their status on soft ground but some do by their handlers choice(why ?) not because of circumstances caused by distance Nobody would expect Druimmuir to compete in Cornwall !
However trainers/handlers deliberately only driving north to compete is questionable don't you think ?

Just to keep a sense of balance one non kc reg litter which went like hot cakes and has proven to be outstanding workers were sired by a dog originally from Scotland so we have no bias.

Edited by welshboy454, 15 September 2009 - 08:11 am.


#22 rickyspringer

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 08:45 am

NOW heres a thought why are english springers more populer than welsh springers? :whistling:
[/quote]


what a silly naive comment total different kettle of fish.

#23 hily

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 11:42 am

if your basis for this topic is only from the shoot you are in and the lads that are agreaing with you are mostly from wales is this a trend in wales alone .yes the field trial judge is right a dog can be made up from working soft cover but he is only one judge and you must admit not all ftch dogs will get there by this route. So again you have at least a measure of the dog to some extent if it has a ped and again its down to buyer to get what he is looking for.NOW heres a thought why are english springers more populer than welsh springers? http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

Hily you are trying to be mischievious !
My experience is not based on just our shoot - I go beating in a few shoots and talking to other beaters it does seem to be an increasing trend that the kc reg papers are not valued as highly as you would think. For some reason people are voting on this issue by their actions ie relying more on their knowledge of the parents having seen them work. The first couple of posters agree so it is not an isolated matter limited to West Wales.
I have not said that all Ftch get their status on soft ground but some do by their handlers choice(why ?) not because of circumstances caused by distance Nobody would expect Druimmuir to compete in Cornwall !
However trainers/handlers deliberately only driving north to compete is questionable don't you think ?

Just to keep a sense of balance one non kc reg litter which went like hot cakes and has proven to be outstanding workers were sired by a dog originally from Scotland so we have no bias.
No just looking at it from my eperiences and a different point of view i reply to add to the debate not to take anything away please accept that not everybody will agrea with you when you post a topic so what do you think are there more none paperwork dogs than used to be or is it regional and are some ftch dogs realy lowering the drive of the breed .atb i like a bit banter.

#24 hily

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 11:52 am

NOW heres a thought why are english springers more populer than welsh springers? http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...



what a silly naive comment total different kettle of fish.

sorry don't take it to seriousley it was ment as a joke anyway whats the price of fish got to do with it. :hmm: atb.

Edited by hily, 15 September 2009 - 11:56 am.


#25 welshboy454

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 12:35 pm

NOW heres a thought why are english springers more populer than welsh springers? http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...



what a silly naive comment total different kettle of fish.

sorry don't take it to seriousley it was ment as a joke anyway whats the price of fish got to do with it. http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub... atb.
I knew you were pulling my leg thats why I did not bite hmmm fishing !

#26 rickyspringer

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:00 pm

haha okay you had me, i'm the sucker!! :wallbash:

#27 hily

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:37 pm

haha okay you had me, i'm the sucker!! http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

you'v got to have a sense of humour when you'v spanials atb .

#28 rickyspringer

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 05:31 pm

tell me about it, think i may get a lab next :icon_redface:

#29 nelly76

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 04:43 pm

i have never had a springer without papers as i always believed this proved quality of worker and such what a load of codswhallop sp.
the last springer i had had 2 ftch in line and cost an arm and a leg now not wanting to sound faceitious it was tosh completely untrainable too high strung
i have at the moment 2 labs one of which is papered the other came from pedigreed paretnts but the dam was caught in her first season so the kc would not register the pups this dog is one of the best i have had the pleasure of working with she's keen as mustard hunts well and retrieves like a gud un so as far as the k.c. and their obsession with bloodlines go i couldnt give a tosh the ability of the animal to do the jobit was bred for has to be paramount in my opinion.

#30 butcherboy

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 04:46 pm

i have never had a springer without papers as i always believed this proved quality of worker and such what a load of codswhallop sp.
the last springer i had had 2 ftch in line and cost an arm and a leg now not wanting to sound faceitious it was tosh completely untrainable too high strung
i have at the moment 2 labs one of which is papered the other came from pedigreed paretnts but the dam was caught in her first season so the kc would not register the pups this dog is one of the best i have had the pleasure of working with she's keen as mustard hunts well and retrieves like a gud un so as far as the k.c. and their obsession with bloodlines go i couldnt give a tosh the ability of the animal to do the jobit was bred for has to be paramount in my opinion.



For what it's worth I'm not aware of anyone around me using spaniels without papers. Some have no great FTCH breeding but they are all KC registered.


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