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Springers with no papers


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#1 welshboy454

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:26 pm

It seems to me that there is an increase in the number of dogs with no papers. I see this in our own shoot where this year other than my own dog only 1 out of seven spaniels will be kc registered. It used to be all kc reg.In fact a few years ago I tried buying a litter brother of a dog in our shoot - I had seen him working while beating he had plenty of drive style and control which made me offer silly money which was refused. I see quite a few used for beating without papers. Again we hear a lot about sprockers.
The common thread seems to be that all these dogs owners are only interested in how they work using direct evidence of watching their parents and have no interest in pedigrees
Is this common across the country or is it just a local thing ? It may be because the type of local cover our dogs are expected to work is heavy bramble/furze/blackthorn -not leaves/ rushes/ heather.
If it is widespread the gene pool of pedigree dogs will diminish rapidly.

#2 rickyspringer

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 07:42 am

this seems to be the norm nowadays, alot of people aren't bothered by papers, as long as the dog does the job thats good enough...

I think its down to alot of lost faith in the KC, breeders making big numbers aswell as breeding for names. I know alot of Gamekeepers or beaters how you have said don 't keep dogs with papers.

In my opinion its about the names in the pedigree aswell as how many ftch's there is, load of rubbish in my eyes.

I don't believe we will lose the gene pool, as trialling is a big..aswell as high money pets with tails.

like the terrier men do, worker X worker is the key.

#3 poacher3161

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:23 am

Totally agree with wat rickey has said.A lot depends on the honesty of the breeder of pups and paper work IMHO is insignificant to the outcome of a worker to worker springer.atvb dell

#4 jimb

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:35 am

If more of the gun dog lads were honest with themselves and did not worry about the ££££ and took some of the breeding principle s that some of the terrier and lurcher lads have about breeding workerx worker best to the best then the quality of our working gun dogs would rise ,but unfortunately this will never happen on a large scale as most gun dog men are more interested in FTCH on peds and the £££££££.

Edited by jimb, 20 August 2009 - 08:36 am.


#5 welsh-dragon

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:57 am

Ive seen on local shoot's around me to be the same not many with papers, and i feel the one of the main reasons is a few people
see a good working dam and sire on a shoot, and you always get,
"when they have pups can i book one" and so on ,

in the end the guy has order of 5 pups, and because most people whom rough shoot or beat locally are not really bothered about papers or FTCH,
because they have seen with there own eyes a great dam & sire work any cover retrieve from anywhere, and take any comand,
the dogs are sold even if it had a certifcate from tony tiger Kellogg's Frosties as the affx

and the cycle starts over again with the pups when they start working, only takes a few litters in your area and in 3 years time, starts over again.

I feel this is fine, if all the pups are sold local , but thats never going to happen, in the end pups are sold really cheap and might end up in the wrong hands, and then there is a dog with no paper getting passed around.

Edited by welsh-dragon, 20 August 2009 - 09:00 am.


#6 rickyspringer

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:59 am

couldn't agree with you more Jimb, its all about this dog has x amount of ftch's and ftw's, its awful, its all a huge money maker, breeding is what the big boys do for the money, puppy farmers alot of them....I reckon a high number of the dogs don't see a working day, they are there to be bred from.

I would much prefer to buy from a true dog man, who keeps dogs which suit his needs and what perform in the field, some of them may not be world beaters but they will be hard working honest dogs. that suits me fine.

Big kennels definitely breed on a commercial scale. not with the wellbeing of dogs at heart, i think the £££ is there driving force.

Welshboy thanks for another interesting post.

#7 welshboy454

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:15 am

Totally agree with wat rickey has said.A lot depends on the honesty of the breeder of pups and paper work IMHO is insignificant to the outcome of a worker to worker springer.atvb dell

Now this touches on a thorny issue- only this week I was told by a guy that he had been asked for the papers of his dog by somebody(A) who wished to claim it as the father of pups he (A)was trying to sell- the bitch had stole the dog from her litter brother.

#8 poacher3161

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:27 am

Totally agree with wat rickey has said.A lot depends on the honesty of the breeder of pups and paper work IMHO is insignificant to the outcome of a worker to worker springer.atvb dell

Now this touches on a thorny issue- only this week I was told by a guy that he had been asked for the papers of his dog by somebody(A) who wished to claim it as the father of pups he (A)was trying to sell- the bitch had stole the dog from her litter brother.

No paper work no problem would arise JMO atvb dell

#9 jimb

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:51 am

Does any one know of any litters of decent litters from decent working gun dogs that are just given out to friends free of charge ?

#10 poacher3161

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:03 am

Does any one know of any litters of decent litters from decent working gun dogs that are just given out to friends free of charge ?

Not always free of charge but my recent litter one was gifterd to codder 85 on here a good mate and the other 2[she only whelped 3] were took by an old mate in ipswitch who had been waiting 2 years for me to breed as his old one of me 14 years ago had passed away.He didnt exspect me to give him the pups but was more than happy with the £150 a pup price tag.Its just a shame the other 5 who had orderd them were let down as i dont plan to breed in the near future.atvb dell

#11 welsh-dragon

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:51 am

Does any one know of any litters of decent litters from decent working gun dogs that are just given out to friends free of charge ?



yes i have seen this in the past, but its all to do with keeping a certin line between friends and for maybe future breeding,
somebody may have a dog which they would like to use if proven, as most straight hard working people and are really into field sports are not in it for the money
its about having a good working dog, so pups are passed around friends or good friends of a friend,
that one day, will return the good deed,

in all forms of field sports this goes on, i know for people giving away £2500 birds of prey so in the future the deed will be returned, all about preserving the best lines in all forms anmials ie showing/hunting/ and so on.

like someone who is selling a really good ie dog you never really hear about it because it gets sold local 90% of the time.

Edited by welsh-dragon, 20 August 2009 - 10:52 am.


#12 farmerrich

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 01:28 pm

The only worry I would have with buying a dog with no papers would be that it may have been stolen, or the bitch may have been stolen if buying a pup.
There are a heck of a lot of working dogs being taken.

#13 poacher3161

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 03:57 pm

The only worry I would have with buying a dog with no papers would be that it may have been stolen, or the bitch may have been stolen if buying a pup.
There are a heck of a lot of working dogs being taken.

That is a very good valid point you have made something i would consider thinking about if i chose to by a springer other than from my close group of mates.atvb dell :clapper: :thumbs:

#14 Sixchimnies Spaniels

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:51 am

couldn't agree with you more Jimb, its all about this dog has x amount of ftch's and ftw's, its awful, its all a huge money maker, breeding is what the big boys do for the money, puppy farmers alot of them....I reckon a high number of the dogs don't see a working day, they are there to be bred from.

I would much prefer to buy from a true dog man, who keeps dogs which suit his needs and what perform in the field, some of them may not be world beaters but they will be hard working honest dogs. that suits me fine.

Big kennels definitely breed on a commercial scale. not with the wellbeing of dogs at heart, i think the £££ is there driving force.


You can't tar them all with the same brush.....there are people that trial that only breed every few years to continue to get good stock, and never sell to pet homes....I am one of them.....and my dogs will work a full day on a shoot the same as the non-registered workers that you seem so keen on....and regularly do 3 or 4 times a week....

The reason that pedigrees are important is that it is a record of where stock has come from - if there is a particular strength in a dog then people will want to use him/her to continue breeding dogs with that strength....how can you keep a record of that if dogs are not registered with someone......yes I know the KC are far from perfect but at the moment it is all we have......
And the FTCH/FTW thing.....it is only that one dog has been judged to have been the best dog on that particular day/test.....
It is just like you going on a shoot and beating or picking up and on one particular day so and so's dog worked best that day because he pulled off an amazing retrieve....or he flushed the best pheasants.....whatever.....
It is just 4 peoples opinions on who performed the best on that day.......

#15 waidmann

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 08:14 am

i consider the fact that a pup has paperwork as secondary,it should be well bred,well formed and healthy( as should the dam and sire).
i prefer to buy from people i know/are known to people i know have an understanding of dogs/the breed.
alot of money to be made with dogs( irrespective of working abilities) and bullshit can baffle alot of us.
i agree with the point that being able to trace the heritage of a dog is important,a responsible breeder will be able to tell you what line the dog is from( again relying on trust!).
dogs are stolen and sold/bred from.the micro chip is a very good thing as this goes.by no means certain.
some of the problem is also to be found in the high prices for the dogs being out of the average working mans range( wife,kids,beer on a friday night :)i consider the fact that a pup has paperwork as secondary,it should be well bred,well formed and healthy( as should the dam and sire).
i prefer to buy from people i know/are known to people i know have an understanding of dogs/the breed.
alot of money to be made with dogs( irrespective of working abilities) and bullshit can baffle alot of us.
i agree with the point that being able to trace the heritage of a dog is important,a responsible breeder will be able to tell you what line the dog is from( again relying on trust!).
dogs are stolen and sold/bred from.the micro chip is a very good thing as this goes.by no means certain.
some of the problem is also to be found in the high prices for the dogs being out of the average working mans range( wife,kids,beer on a friday night :) )
as long as the litter is not the second in the year from one bitch( often a reason for no papers) no problem. workerxworker fit and healthy( body and mind) and all is well.


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