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#76 HUnter_zero

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 06:20 am

Point #1. English law - Roe & larger require a 240 or greater (i.e. practical minimum of 243 or more) with 1700 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and a soft or hollow point bullet. Ballistic tips of ALL types are included, no expanding bullets are illegal for deer.

But it does for roe, and that's what I've got to shoot, + the occasional muntjac.



Okay, I'm not exactly sure why I am replying but you seem like a jolly chap so I'll lend some advice.
You would be correct in stating that the Deer act states " soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet." which would seem to match your logic but as stalkers or deer managers we not only have to comply to the provisions made under the Deer act but also several other acts. The act most suited to ammunition is the firearms act that make reference to the following "references to a missile’s expanding on impact include references to its deforming in any predictable manner on or immediately after impact" which purposely designed vermin / varmint bullets are not.
Now we can explore even deeper in to our minefield of legislation. If you were to shoot a deer with a bullet designed for vermin and were to cause an injury or suffering to the deer then you would be in breach of all sorts of animal welfare legislation. You can not make up the law or have as a defence "the bullet is expanding gov." because manufactures of bullets clearly state openly in public the intended purpose of the bullet design and use. To use a bullet designed for vermin sized animals with the biology of vermin such as fox is not only incompetent but also illegal. Now you have openly stated on a public forum that you have used such bullet design and as such I would be very careful it is feasible that an FEO may well be reading. On the subject of Muntjac, I find these deer harder to put down than a fallow, never mind a roe.

John

Edited by HUnter_zero, 19 August 2009 - 06:21 am.


#77 Mr_Logic

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:55 am

Not sure why you're quoting the Firearms Act. The particular quote you reference is in the section discussing Section 5 ammunition; it has nothing to do with the shooting of deer. Irrespective, varmint bullets do deform in a Predictable Manner - they explode!

Please find me the bit in animal welfare legislation where it discusses bullet choice. Quite simply, if I use a 70 grain Nosler on a deer and place the shot, I will absolutely guarantee 100% that the shot will be more humane than some numpty who can't shoot for shit putting a 100 grain softpoint in the deer's belly or arse. Given that I can shoot and have the track record to prove it, that I only take such a shot if I have the correct conditions and a deer who is presenting correctly, I very much doubt any animal cruelty legislation will apply.

In addition, on a soft roe deer, the heavier varmint bullets are perfect for a neck shot - you don't want a vast amount of penetration, just a little, with severe and instant expanding shock damage. How does the 70 grain Nosler, for example, not provide this?

Therefore, clearly, it is perfectly legal. If you can provide RELEVANT, referenced quotes from Acts of Parliament, please do, I will be glad to see them.

Regarding muntjac, I've not found one that argued with a 50 grain 223 v-max, let alone the 243.

#78 Dan_Smiff

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:55 am

I completely agree with Mr L here – my stalking partner uses 87gn Nosler home loads (I use 80 or 90gn factory SP stuff) specifically for Roe and they always deliver the goods, especially with neck shots (his and my preference where suitable). Our deer drop, they don’t run – that’s plenty humane enough for me!

It’s each to their own but to say that ballistic tips are either illegal or entirely unsuitable shows a blinkered view. Similarly, we shoot deer mainly as pest control and the meat doesn’t go through a game dealer so it’s no problem for us as long as the animal is dead.

#79 HUnter_zero

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 05:32 pm

Therefore, clearly, it is perfectly legal. If you can provide RELEVANT, referenced quotes from Acts of Parliament, please do, I will be glad to see them.



To be honest I doubt I could change your illegal activities if I tried but and for the last time.
You state, that the use of Ballistic tip ammunition for the shooting of deer is legal in England and Wales, the deer act clearly states Any bullet other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullets are prohibited for use against deer, BT's are neither soft or hollow nosed bullets.
QUOTE :
"SCHEDULE 2

Prohibited firearms and ammunition

Firearms

1
Any smooth-bore gun. .
2
Any rifle having a calibre of less than .240 inches or a muzzle energy of less than 2,305 joules (1,700 foot pounds). .
3
Any air gun, air rifle or air pistol. .
Ammunition

4
Any cartridge for use in a smooth-bore gun. .
5
Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet.
"

I still stand by my statement that the use of bullets solely designed for vermin shooting is both illegal and incompetent.

John

#80 HUnter_zero

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 05:34 pm

my stalking partner uses 87gn Nosler home loads



Then he will not be using Ballistics tips then.

John

#81 CharlieT

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:32 pm

John

It is a shame that the question of the legality of "ballistic tips" was not visited when the caliber changes for small deer were drafted as it would have put to bed the ballistic tip quandary for good.

Whilst I would agree that the use of ballistic tips on deer is a gray area and going strictly by the book their use is not permitted I have to put my hand up and say that I use ballistic tips on deer. However, I use "hunting" ballistic tips. These have been specifically designed to expand in a controlled and predictable manner on deer and I therefore feel that I am using a correct type of bullet.

A cursory glance at any of the bullet manufacturers websites will tell you that "varmint" ballistic tips are not suitable for deer and the like and therefore should not be used. I sincerely hope no one is using these on any of the species of deer as their use is without doubt illegal and in my view downright irresponsible.
If I caught someone using them when they should know better I would not hesitate to report them to the relevant authority.

#82 HUnter_zero

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:48 pm

I have to put my hand up and say that I use ballistic tips on deer. However, I use "hunting" ballistic tips. These have been specifically designed to expand in a controlled and predictable manner on deer and I therefore feel that I am using a correct type of bullet.


Would totally agree with you.
You have selected a bullet which has specifically been designed for deer shooting. The bullets are manufactured for the purpose and as such as fit for the purpose, however as you also point out the use of polymer tipped bullets in E&W is very grey to say the least.
I will be 100% honest I have considered using BT and even V-max due to not being able to reload a duel purpose load for both fox & deer but due to the legalities and the terminal ballistics I have refrained and doubt (I know) that I never will.
I tested some 58 grain V-max at the local range and concluded the bullets were no where near suitable for deer due to massive and very unpredictable expansion. A 2'x2' block of gelatin showed fragmentation at right angles from POI with total penetration (IIRC with out my notes) of just under 12". One day I'll test some with beef bones in the gel and see what effective penetration the bullets have. OTOH a 100 grain SP produces a good wound channel straight through the gel block.

John

#83 Mr_Logic

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:34 pm

John

It is a shame that the question of the legality of "ballistic tips" was not visited when the caliber changes for small deer were drafted as it would have put to bed the ballistic tip quandary for good.

Whilst I would agree that the use of ballistic tips on deer is a gray area and going strictly by the book their use is not permitted I have to put my hand up and say that I use ballistic tips on deer. However, I use "hunting" ballistic tips. These have been specifically designed to expand in a controlled and predictable manner on deer and I therefore feel that I am using a correct type of bullet.

A cursory glance at any of the bullet manufacturers websites will tell you that "varmint" ballistic tips are not suitable for deer and the like and therefore should not be used. I sincerely hope no one is using these on any of the species of deer as their use is without doubt illegal and in my view downright irresponsible.
If I caught someone using them when they should know better I would not hesitate to report them to the relevant authority.

And who, pray tell, would you report them to? Oh Look Officer! That man over there used a 243 which is on his ticket for deer, to kill a deer! He used an expanding bullet which is both soft and hollow nosed to humanely kill a deer, and he complied with his permissions, landowners and all revelant Deer Acts! Please arrest him for this heinous ... no ... wait ... he's done nothing wrong.

Regarding the 87 grain, Nosler don't make one which means this is the Hornady 87-grain V-max, which is a Varmint bullet.

CharlieT and HunterZero, you harp on about the 70 grain bullet being illegal - I say again, post me some RELEVANT Act of Parliament which supports you and I will eat humble pie.

Unfortunately for you the ballistic tip (as can be seen from the bloody great section picture on Nosler's site) has a polycarbonate tip, under which there is a hollow cavity. Reason why - the soft polycarbonate tip drives into the hollow space, initiating an expansion, unlike the traditional hollow point which relies on transit through something solid. Consequently there is more expansion.

I will re-state - these things are reliable - they almost always expand. Almost always is as good as you can get, and I have seen plenty of SPs go straight through with no expansion.

Prove me wrong, otherwise accept that while you don't like it, and while it goes against what YOU want and do, it is perfectly legal to use this bullet and those like it. We will agree to disagree about the responsibility or otherwise of using such bullets on roe deer. Simple fact is that the trail of instantly-killed dead roe deer sort of agrees with me, but there is no conclusion so let's leave that bit.

#84 HUnter_zero

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:18 pm

CharlieT and HunterZero, you harp on about the 70 grain bullet being illegal -



Your either dense or just not reading posts, it has nothing to do with bullet weight, for the VERY last time it has everything to do with bullet DESIGN.
I've wasted more than enough time with you.

John

#85 Mr_Logic

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:25 pm

I meant my particular bullet, which HAPPENS TO BE a 70 grain Nosler. You clearly are in capable of a reasoned argument, not seen one. Not seen any relevant evidence to back up your claims.

#86 HUnter_zero

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 05:54 am

I meant my particular bullet, which HAPPENS TO BE a 70 grain Nosler. You clearly are in capable of a reasoned argument, not seen one. Not seen any relevant evidence to back up your claims.



Just for the hell of it. You seem to have forgotten to add "ballistic tip and varmint" to your particular bullet selection, why is that?
If legislation is something your not interested in following then there isn't a lot anyone can do to help you.
The requirements for rifle ammunition are as follows : E&W The bullet must be soft-nosed or hollow-nosed. S: Roe not less than 50 grain / ME 1000ft/lb other deer 100 grains / ME 1750 ft/lb but both bullet designs must be expanding bullets designed to DEFORM (and not explode) in a predictable manner. NI: 100 grain / ME 1700 ft/lb and AGAIN must be expanding bullets designed to DEFORM (and not explode) in a predictable manner. (also take in to account all resent changes with regards to the small deer clauses).
Now that's the legislation that prevents you from using 70 grain varmint bullets, can you show me any legislation that apposes the above? If not then I suggest you follow the current UK laws. There is little more to be said on the matter but if you have an issue then take it to PM.

Edited by HUnter_zero, 20 August 2009 - 05:56 am.


#87 Dan_Smiff

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:21 am

my stalking partner uses 87gn Nosler home loads



Then he will not be using Ballistics tips then.

John



Forgot to say 87gn Ballistic tip Nosler homeloads (he said they are Nosler heads, I couldn't be sure but they have 87gn written in pen on the brass by the guy that loads them and they have red, plastic tips)

#88 Mr_Logic

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:35 am

Hunter zero, thanks for filling me in on Northern Ireland.

The ballistic tip is made for larger game too you know. And is perfectly legal in both varieties in England, which is what we're discussing. The BT deforms in a predictable manner, it just does so very quickly. If you won't accept this then that's up to you. You're wrong, simple fact, but if you won't see it then we may as well leave it there.

Incidentally, you made mention (or someone did anyway) of the Tnt as also being illegal - that's hollow point and deforms predictably too. That illegal?

What about the 110gr varmint bullets for 308? Though unsuitable, they would be legal for use on reds. Or are you randomly outlawing them too?

Hey ho...

#89 CharlieT

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:47 am

"And who, pray tell, would you report them to? Oh Look Officer! That man over there used a 243 which is on his ticket for deer, to kill a deer! He used an expanding bullet which is both soft and hollow nosed to humanely kill a deer, and he complied with his permissions, landowners and all revelant Deer Acts! Please arrest him for this heinous ... no ... wait ... he's done nothing wrong."

Mock me as you will Mr Logic, but the matter is covered by an act of parliment and therefore breaking the law would be a matter for the police.
I for one would not wish to jepodise my fac because I simply refused to use the correct bullet type.

You do as you will but please don't lead others to think that it is legal and that "Varmint" bullets are the correct ones for deer.

#90 Mr_Logic

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 11:39 am

We can argue about correct all you like - there are two schools of thought, and each one is perfectly justified.

Legality - if you have an ACTUAL ACT or a quote from one, or anything else which says it's illegal, please post it. I have posted all the legislation I know of which completely and utterly agrees with me.


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