Gamekeeper bred or Trialler Bred??

[rickyspringer 15]

Hi all,

 

thought i would raise this interesting subject, what do you prefer and explain why you prefer it.

 

For me I would always go with a nice Gamekeeper strain, they always have the FTCH's foundation but I think the dogs can go for longer and harder. For me a trial is a sprint and a full day out in the field is marathon.

 

Lets hear your opinions

 

RS

[Guest rodsmith]

trialler bred spaniels are usually to hot.

[jessdale 416]

Personally i would go for a trial bred dog.Yes they are quick but if worked for longer periods they would pace themselves accordingly.I know some keepers dogs that are rubbish,slow and noisy with a hard mouth,so "gamekeeper bred" would not hold up as much as "ftch" bred in my eyes.At least if you get succesfull trialling stock you know the dogs have done the job ie:fast(exciting to watch),silent and soft mouthed ,these things are bred in not trained in.

[Young Chud 1]

as long as your on top of it (training wise) then trial bred all my dogs are trial bred just because it is what i have grown up with but for just general beating then the non trial breeds can be just as use full

[welshboy454 3]

Personally i would go for a trial bred dog.Yes they are quick but if worked for longer periods they would pace themselves accordingly.I know some keepers dogs that are rubbish,slow and noisy with a hard mouth,so "gamekeeper bred" would not hold up as much as "ftch" bred in my eyes.At least if you get succesfull trialling stock you know the dogs have done the job ie:fast(exciting to watch),silent and soft mouthed ,these things are bred in not trained in.

Not all trials bred strains can handle a full days work or pace themselves accordingly. I have seen one well bred brilliant worker (for an hour) being carried back across fields and up hills after 2 and a half hours work. I would not give it house room. On the other hand I have seen keepers dogs working all day on a shooting day after dogging in in the early morning.

I am not saying that all trials dogs are rubbish just that some strains are better than others for a long days shooting work.

There has been some discussion in another topic on this.

Keepers are in a good position to judge other peoples dogs working while they are beating and picking up on a shoot and are able to pick and choose either a pup or a mating. As most springers are from a limited gene pool they choose the ones that will suit them ( and mostly they will be from ft stock)

Another insight to working ability is given by Keith Erlandson when he talks of some dogs winning trials on dead leaves or rushes and withdrawn when faced with heavy cover.

In short the strain is important for a worker which is what most of us want.

Edited July 23, 2009 by welshboy454

[druimmuir 1]

a trial dog should be a well polished shooting dog, nothing more and should be more than capable of a days work, just a shame a lot of triallers don't work their dogs....for me i would happily have either, depends what bloodline names are in the pedigree

[Young Chud 1]

i dont know what trialing dogs you've seen welshboy but trialing dogs are good workers.... just as good as any other its not neceserily down to the breeding its upto the dog look at FTCH Jade of livermere its pedigree was near to blank when it came to ftw or ftch next to its name you just never know what your going to get thrown. i know alot of trialing people and they have to put alot of effort into their dogs ... there worked alot how would they get to trialing standard if they were not?

[farmerrich 1]

A lot has been made of stamina but most trialers only work their dogs for short periods as if they worked for longer they would pace themselves and their hunting style suffers. You would expect a keepers dog to be fitter and have greater stamina if it is worked several days a week as well as constantly being about with him but this is not down to genetics, the dog doesn't inherit its fitness. If you buy a dog with proven trial breeding you know that it is from parents who are sound in every respect of hunting ability, trainability, mouth etc. you are shortening the odds on having a good dog. Keepers dogs are required to do a lot of dogging in, beating etc so are likely to be good hunters but many will not have been tested for soundness of mouth or other undesirable faults.

I personally would go for a pup with trial breeding as untested dogs are a bit more of a gamble, even if they are bred from trial dogs a few generationjs back. As far as stamina goes, that is down to you.

[welshboy454 3]

i dont know what trialing dogs you've seen welshboy but trialing dogs are good workers.... just as good as any other its not neceserily down to the breeding its upto the dog look at FTCH Jade of livermere its pedigree was near to blank when it came to ftw or ftch next to its name you just never know what your going to get thrown. i know alot of trialing people and they have to put alot of effort into their dogs ... there worked alot how would they get to trialing standard if they were not?

I never said they were not good workers. Ask yourself this how long is a run in a trial ? - do you measure it in minutes or hours ? Is it a short artificial but useful test of a dogs ability?

Some dogs are conditioned just for the trial whilst others have a greater depth of stamina is all I am saying.

My own dog is heavily from ft lines but has stamina and one strain is distinctly absent whilst Badgercourt is dominant throughout.

[Young Chud 1]

I wasnt like having a go or anything mate but a dogs stamina depends on how often its worked does it matter if its trial bred or keeper bred its down to how often the dog is out.

 

are dogs trial every season and there out every day when on a shoot day the trial dogs look more impressive than anything else its down to owner input not breeding however the trial bred are more looked into for style and other important aspect of dogs ability.

[welshboy454 3]

a dogs stamina depends on how often its worked does it matter if its trial bred or keeper bred its down to how often the dog is out.

In general I agree but occasionally hereditary hypoglycemia can occur causing a lack of stamina for a full days hunting but enough to get through a short trial run.

The dog I saw being carried home after 2.5 hours is an example- he was placed in some working tests but I would never buy from his strain.

Proven hereditary stamina is more likely to exist in strains that have been observed over long days and lifetimes.

[rickyspringer 15]

personally I am with welshboy, I am not saying trialling dogs aren't as good as keeper bred, they are, i just beg to parden some of the lines which have been bred for trialling, you can fault me if i am wrong but i genuinely know that professional triallers with there own line tweak what they need for a trialing.

 

My bitch is from keeper stock, but a few generations back its filled with the Ftch's and so on. This is ideal for me, I know that my bitch isn't to hot to handle, she has a great foundation and the great qualities will be passed on, breeding in my eyes has alot to do with how a dog will perform.

 

I also beg to differ with the ones who are mentioning that keepers dogs inherent hard mouths and other undesirable traits, that is complete nonsense in my eyes, keepers dogs have to be good at what they do, and for me thats an all rounder, beating,dogging in, retrieving. The keepers I know don't keep rubbish, and they definitely don't have time to breed it!!

[hily 379]

Idon't think the gene pool is that big as to have seperate types i go for the look of the dame and the sire when i say look i don't meen bonny or colour i meen stature close coupled or long body good muscle etc. However if it has a good few ftch in the pedigree than i make use of the judgment of others that the line has the bassis for the dog to turn out well to do the job it was bred for and that is if i am good enough to be able to train it .I have come accross duds from both sides so its the luck of the draw .MY ONLY ADVICE SEE BOTH SIRE AND DAME WORK WHEN NO PEDIGREE IS OFFERD OR VERY FEW FTCH IN THE LINES. this is only my take on the subject good luck.

[welshboy454 3]

The following is an extract I found on the web confirming Hypoglycemia as being a problem encountered in Field Trials.

What happens to the working stock if a dog with hereditary hypoglycemia wins trials and is used extensively at stud to unwitting breeders?

 

"

( published in Spaniels In The Field - winter 2003 )

 

With the trial season fast approaching, I suggest that you all take time to consider your degree of preparedness.

 

Should one of your dogs suffer a misadventure in transit or at the event, would you be equipped to deal with first aid? Certainly none of the truly devoted trial enthusiasts would even consider leaving home base without a well-stocked first aid kit.

 

Feedback I receive from the field tells me a veterinarian found at a trial is the exception rather than the rule. Furthermore, a veterinary clinic in proximity to the grounds is often unlikely. And I even hear that in the name of sport and comraderie you will venture into the outback where telephones have not yet made an appearance. Given a large number of dogs (and handlers) on adrenalin overdoses travelling at great speed through dense cover, it is almost a sure thing that some accidents will happen. The suggestions that follow are meant to help you in dealing with a crisis situation until you can reach veterinary assistance, not to imply that veterinary attention is not required.

 

Fortunately most problems you encounter will probably be fairly minor. Cut footpads, small lacerations or eyes scratched by brush may be most common. More serious problems include fractured legs, heat stroke, hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), concussions, bleeding arteries or veins. Having the necessary items with you when needed and knowing how to use them may determine the ultimate outcome."

[Young Chud 1]

Hypoglycemia isnt in just trial dogs though can be in any it shouldnt be considered in this discussion if his dog has hypoglycemia then if he wants to show his dogs ability in a field trial than fair play to him. trial dogs arent just used for trials then locked in a kennel till the next trial there used as beaters pickers up ect these dogs have great stamina just because a run in a trial isnt as long as a whole day working doesnt mean they cant work a whole day because that would be a waste of a great worker and they need as much experience in the field as they can get to develop there ability.

 

at the end of the day trial dogs are there to prove them selves as the best workers around.