advice when feeding meat

[lurchergrrl 1,441]

it does have a wright thats correct but when she is older and at a working age how will i gat a rabbit of her if she trys to take my hand of every time. it need rules and cotrol ...my family had a dog for years and we all new dont go near her when she has a bone. it should not be like that

 

Retrieving in the field is not the same as standing over her bowl. The first bunny my dog caught, she ate. And I let her. The next one she caught, I just let her play about with it and carry it for a while, took it off her, then gave it back etc etc. Now she retrieves what I ask her to, including from the water if I toss something in for her.

 

Force with a dog who is gaurding their food is not the way forward. Teaching them that you don't want to take their food will let them relax about it.

 

And for the record I don't take bones off my dogs. I call them too me, then pick up the bone. I crate the dogs to avoid them fighting over it as well.

 

To each their own mate, but it's not the way I would advise someone to do it.

[doglad1 32]

it does have a wright thats correct but when she is older and at a working age how will i gat a rabbit of her if she trys to take my hand of every time. it need rules and cotrol ...my family had a dog for years and we all new dont go near her when she has a bone. it should not be like that

 

start learning the dog to retrive so when the dog catches the rabbits it should be giving the rabbits to you not you taking them of the dog

[runforyourlife 361]

Well lurchergirl, i put thge same post up 2yrs ago, and had over 27 replies, all saying the same thing, scruff of neck. Even my missus did it, and it worked a treat, so i am sorry but i cant agree with you, unless you have of course had a dog that bit you, and you have tryed and tested the idea.....And i can take anything out of my dogs mouth, especially when they start eating sheep shit!!

[runforyourlife 361]

You need to get a grip straight away!! Grab it by the scruff of the neck and push its face into the floor, make it yelp and then roll over and be submissive! Its the best way to show who is the boss, do it everytime it grawls, it will soon stop..

 

And yes you are doing right stroking while eating, and moving food. Dont worry about these saying" well, why move food," sometimes you may have to, and it also part of training a dog, and letting it know who is the alpha male....

 

Erm .... I have to disagree with you RFYL. That's a very old technique that is now seen as redundant in dog training. Sometimes you have to be firm with you dogs but that kind of thing doesn't show them anything other than that you're a bully. IMO that's a great way to break your bond with your dog. Bear in mind that I used to train my dogs that way, including my wolf x years ago. Since abandoning those methods my bond with my dogs is better and stronger.

 

A very good, wise dog man said to me once "I'd be more concerned about calling my dog away from it's food than being able to take it's food away from it". I agree 100%.

 

I also have three young kids in the house. I just make sure I feed mine either in their crates or away from the kids to keep any accidents from happening. If the behavoiur is only happening when you feed raw meat then why antagonise the dog any further by insisting you want to take it's food? I'd walk by and chuck a few more pieces in thier bowl while their eating, to let them know you're NOT interested in taking their food. If they get cranky when you touch them then, well ffs don't touch them.

 

If I was eating a plate of my favorite oysters with hot sauce you tried to take it away from me I'd growl at you too. If you grabbed me by the scruff and shoved my face into the floor I'd paste you good and proper.

 

A dog has a right to it's food mate.

 

Nah, read the woman who reads dogs brains, and has turned the most vicous dogs into loving animals, cant remember her name, shes been on tv, you know the woman... She says you should be able to eat out of your dogs bowl at the same time as your dog, not stand back throwing food into it.... i am not getting into an arguement here with you, i have tested the idea and it works. And as for bonding, well if loftie ever did come back on here, he would tell you how ridicoulous my dogs bond is with me! It does my head in sometimes how close he has to be with me!

 

And well you dont like the idea of being firm with your dogs, well you said you werent sure wether to come out with us because of your dog and sheep. Well you may not want to come out if you dont like firmness, because if one of the 6 dogs we are working ventures anywhere near livestock, it is repremanded, and one of the best things to bring a dog back down to earth while it is hyped right up on hunting, is to scruff its neck...

[blackpack 70]

RFYL spot on advise. Its worked for me over the yrs and i will always use that way.

[lurchergrrl 1,441]

No RFYL I never said you shouldn't be firm - have a look, I said there are times when you need to be firm. I've had mine out with some sheep recently and believe me I was firm Since the last time I let her strangle herself on a long line and then gave her shit for looking at them she's not bothered about them. Today had her off lead around cows - accidentally mind you, 'cause I didn't see them till she'd been running around for about 5 minutes. But she saw them and never batted an eye. Bear in mind this stock thing is all new to me ... my experience with it is limited and at the minute my dog is limited by my inexperience. But general dog behaviour is something that I'm really quite comfortable with.

 

I really do not believe in belting my dogs over their food. Why set them up for failure? Just feed them out of the way and have done. I can pick up her bowl while she's eating if I need to, call her to me off her food if I need to because I've been doing that since she was a puppy. But just to be safe, having kids in the house ... I put her out of the way. I can take anything out of her mouth as well - like when she gets something stuck in there. But I don't push her at it because I don't need to. Why should I feel the need to take her food away?? What purpose does that serve? None if you ask me. She retrieves for me, she recalls to me, she jumps on command, sits, lays down etc etc. She's excellent with the kids and in the house. So why should I care if I can take her food away when she's eating? I used to think that it was really really important for me to be able to shove my hand in my dogs bowl. But ... why the hell should I? I can touch her feet, stick my hand in her mouth, clean her ears and all the rest of it. She wants to eat her food, I let her. It seems daft to take it away just because I can.

 

If it works for you that's fine. I've no doubt your bond with your dogs is fine. But clearly there is more than one way to skin a rabbit, as they say

[lost scouse 46]

im with run you need to have total control of your dog even when there eating there favourite meaty bone ,scruff of the neck bobs your aunty

[lurchergrrl 1,441]

My pup approached my bitch's bowl while she was eating. She snarled at him and snapped - didn't hurt him but she told him off.

 

She didn't grab him by the scruff and throw him to the ground ffs.

 

When she was young she grumped at me too. All I needed to do was use my voice and body language - and teach her that I didn't WANT her food. My hand near how bowl signals a good thing: more food. Because she knows I'm not going to take it, we don't have a problem.

 

I really do fail do see why you need to take their bowl from them. Bowls of food are not game. And besides, mine will bring rabbits to me - which is the only thing I'm interested in. I haven't got a need to 'get her off' of game.

 

Suppose it just boils down to how you look at it. I realise this method works for some folks but it's rough and, for me, totally unnecessary. Plus, if you do it the wrong way .... you can do a lot more harm than good.

[chimp 299]

you are the alpha dog not the pup , it growls at you show it you mean business and take the food away after being scorned the way you would if it pissed on your carpet . , try again in 5 mins and do it again if it carries on

[6pack 60]

Neck scruffing is so out dated - you may as well slap your dog around. Its not a natural thing for a dog, and you had better make sure you are bigger and better. Would love to see you try it with a big dog - would you care to borrow some body armour? Look out for the day your dog thinks your kid is coming to do the same thing to him and he decides to get his bite in first. Am sure you will be quick to PTS for you misdoings

 

Teach the dog that your approach to his bowl is a good thing. Add food rather than taking away. Then when the time comes when you do need to retrieve something from it, he won't instantly be on the defensive. Be the giver of food, not the taker.

A dogs basic instinct is to protect its food. It is a survival instinct.

 

Lets look at this from the dog’s point of view………

 

 

 

How food guarding can come about

 

 

1 Fido the puppy comes into his new home. His owners love him and all is well.

2 As Fido grows, he becomes more confident and outgoing and one day on the park runs off and won’t return, is unusually pully on his lead and jumps up at a passing stranger with muddy paws, making both stranger and owner cross. Fido’s, owner has read some Old fashioned dog training book and wonders if Fido is getting “Dominant�

3 He decides to test this out by seeing if Fido will let him take his food off him. He read this in a book..

4 When next feeding Fido, he reaches down and takes the bowl. Fido freezes and stares indicating his discomfort. Fido is surprised, there has never been a threat to his food before. The owner misses the signal that his dog was uncomfortable with this action, it was too subtle. But the dog didn’t growl, the owner is reassured. All is well.

5 Next Day Fido is really naughty. He jumps in a smelly pond chasing ducks and he stinks really badly. He refuses to come back when called and makes the owner late for breakfast. Owner decides that he must do something about this dog and he decides that he will implement a regular routine of removing the puppy’s food to show his authority.

6 Feeding Fido who is very hungry after a hard morning chasing ducks, tucks in to his food. As Fido is eating, the owner reaches down to take the food. Fido is more prepared this second time, he is now aware that his “stare†did nothing to prevent the removal of his food last time his owners hand approached his bowl. Fido is now ready to take more serious action. He utters a low warning growl as the hand approaches his food.

7 Fido’s owner, though aware he was testing his dog’s reaction. Did not actually expect this reaction, is shocked and withdraws his hand. Fido continues eating; glad his message has got across. All is well in Fido’s world. But not his owners.

8 Owner spends the day pondering Fido’s behaviour. He really can not have Fido behaving this way, Dog aggression as he sees this to be, is a dangerous business, he knows that. He decides to take further action.

9 When feeding Fido next day the owner decides if Fido growls he is going to scruff him, as it says in the book, or smack him to punish Fido’s misdemeanour and make it clear that he, the owner, is the boss, as it says in the book. His hand approaches the bowl, Fido growls, aware that this worked last time. Owner grabs Fido by the scruff, pushes him to the floor and shouts at him.

10 Really angry now, the owner removes Fido’s food and doesn’t give it back. Fido is very frightened and hungry too! He does not understand. Eating used to be a simple, necessary pleasure. Now it seems whenever there is an owner around when he eats, there is tension. Owner tries to steal his food, when Fido says he doesn’t like it, the owner shouts and causes him pain and fear. And takes his food away.

11 Fido decides the best thing is to keep the owner well away from the food in an effort to relieve the tension and avoid the shouting and scruffing and food removal. .

12 Next day, owner places food on floor, both dog and owner are now tense, wondering what the outcome of today’s feeding session might be.

13 Fido immediately goes into growl mode, summoning up his courage he gives his best “I’m not happy with you being here†stare and growls and curls his lips at his owner. He hovers over his food, standing stiff, glaring menacingly. “Back off†he growls. “Chill out about this food thing†he wishes, “go sit in the living room†he says. As the owner takes a step closer, he lunges, teeth displayed and snaps at the air. The owner, now scared, retreats. Fido resumes his eating, unnerved and worried that such tension arises at feeding time, but relieved that the owner has left his food, he is hungry!

14 The owner is horrified at this sudden display of ‘aggression’, his cute puppy has turned into an ugly, vicious, dog. He is outraged and has visions of what might happen if he ever marries and has children, with this dog around. He feels compelled to fix it. Adrenalin rushing and determined to show his dominance over the dog, he roars at the dog, and reaches down, once more for the dog’s scruff. The dog with reactions 3 times faster than that of a human, interprets the owners move and desperate to avoid more scruffing or the removal of his survival resource, bites the owner’s hand before it reaches the bowl.

15 All is far from well now in Fido’s world or his owners.

16 From point 4 of this story, Fido has been progressively put in the situation where he feels it necessary to guard his food. He needs food to live. Fido feels that he has to be on his guard whenever he is eating. He also understands that humans do not necessarily understand, lip curling, snarling, staring, stiffening or growling. The only thing that really makes them back off is biting.

17 Whatever happens next to Fido, he will never forget that human hands can and do sometimes take away his food when he is eating. He is aware that he must be ever vigilant to the approach of humans. He is now aware that most attempts to communicate - growling, snarling, lip curling, staring, freezing, lunging and air snapping - all normal attempts to AVOID aggression or conflict in the dog world, are not recognised and responded to by humans.

18 As many food guarders do, Fido ends up in a rescue home. Others find themselves immediately at the sharp end of a needle.

19 His owner, ashamed at having such an aggressive dog, but too embarrassed to seek help himself, tells the home that he simply doesn’t have time to care for the dog anymore. Fido, an otherwise friendly, well-socialised dog, quickly finds a new home.

20 There are children in this one and he loves them. They play happily together all day the first day. Fido has good manners and the owners are delighted with him. He is gentle and respectful with the children even the baby. The children have read a dog training book and they give him treats in return for sits. All is well again. Fido loves his new home, his new owners love him and the children are delighted to have such a cuddly, playful new friend. Wouldn’t it be great if the story ended here?

21 At feeding time they place the bowl on the floor and walk away, Fido is relieved and happy, no action is necessary.

22 All is well for several weeks. The owners, children and dog are truly delighted.

23 And then one day, when Fido is eating, Fido’s friend, Rosie the baby, now crawling, toddles toward Fido, on her hands and Knees, as she gets closer she reaches out her tiny hand…In an instant Fido remembers that staring and freezing, growling, snarling, snapping, and lunging don’t always work with humans. He has only one option available to him to protect his food……. He doesn’t want to bite Rosie his friend and playmate, but he needs food to live…….

 

24 Rosie is scarred by the incident, mentally and physically. Her parents are distraught and cannot understand the sudden change in Fido – he had always been so gentle with Rosie before? And Fido, having bitten a baby is destroyed.

 

 

I have 7 adult dogs in the house, we never have fights over food and my 6 year old can take from them, and never have I raised a hand or scruffed a neck. We have turned around known food guarders and all will happily hand over everything from food, toys to game.

Scruffing is bullying - who wants a scared dog, let alone a dog which is scared of you? The day will come when the dog takes the bite from the hand that feeds him.

[lost scouse 46]

sorry were did any of those scenarios come from the lad asked one question ,he needs to check the dog

[6pack 60]

sorry were did any of those scenarios come from the lad asked one question ,he needs to check the dog

 

Scenarios? Where you reading? There was one.

One owner for some reason wanting to take a dogs basic resource from him. My post shows how it escalates beyond control.

It is interesting to read how many owners are stuck in the ice ages, still thinking dogs see them as alpha and that dominance rules. Classic!

There is no need to 'check' the dog at all. Just check the way he approaches the situation.

[jenksi87 3]

You need to get a grip straight away!! Grab it by the scruff of the neck and push its face into the floor, make it yelp and then roll over and be submissive! Its the best way to show who is the boss, do it everytime it grawls, it will soon stop..

 

And yes you are doing right stroking while eating, and moving food. Dont worry about these saying" well, why move food," sometimes you may have to, and it also part of training a dog, and letting it know who is the alpha male....

 

Erm .... I have to disagree with you RFYL. That's a very old technique that is now seen as redundant in dog training. Sometimes you have to be firm with you dogs but that kind of thing doesn't show them anything other than that you're a bully. IMO that's a great way to break your bond with your dog. Bear in mind that I used to train my dogs that way, including my wolf x years ago. Since abandoning those methods my bond with my dogs is better and stronger.

 

A very good, wise dog man said to me once "I'd be more concerned about calling my dog away from it's food than being able to take it's food away from it". I agree 100%.

 

I also have three young kids in the house. I just make sure I feed mine either in their crates or away from the kids to keep any accidents from happening. If the behavoiur is only happening when you feed raw meat then why antagonise the dog any further by insisting you want to take it's food? I'd walk by and chuck a few more pieces in thier bowl while their eating, to let them know you're NOT interested in taking their food. If they get cranky when you touch them then, well ffs don't touch them.

 

If I was eating a plate of my favorite oysters with hot sauce you tried to take it away from me I'd growl at you too. If you grabbed me by the scruff and shoved my face into the floor I'd paste you good and proper.

 

A dog has a right to it's food mate.

 

load of bollox mate. what if one of his kids wlks past the dog while its eating at it attacks them?? then the dog gets put down purely because its owner never bothered to teach it basic social skills and let it know its role in the pack. how can you expect a dog to go about everyday life with no aggression when it thinks it is the pack leader / alpha male. it cant and it wont. maybe for so long yes but there will ALWAYS be a time when it shows its dominance and puts others in there place. be it another dog or a child. the dog needs to know whos boss. this includes any person that comes to the house. even the children. it should be submissive and a follower, not a dominant leader or there will always be issues. treat a dog correctly and learn it this while it is young and 99% of the time you will have no problems. and as for the bond with your dog seeming better, trust me it isnt. the dog now thinks it is boss and you have to let it behave how it wants. snarling at people when eating is tottaly unnaceptable but thanks to you letting it get away with it, it will never know that !!!!

[shepp 2,285]

I agree with you RFYL, do what another higher dog in a pack would do and pin it down by the scruff.

Always worked for me, mine look at me with tails wagging when i take bones off them.

[skycat 6,172]

Well said 6pack. There are many stages in a pup's development, and fairly ealy on, whilst the pup is still with its litter mates it learns to growl and guard tasty bits of food, bones and such like, from its siblings.

 

I keep Saluki crosses, which are known for being very possessive both of their food and what they catch. I understand that when a pup gets to the age when it is away from the bitch, either to a new home, at about 8 to 12 weeks old, that pup has already learned to guard its food from other pups.

 

What the pup now has to learn is that you, the owner is not another pup to be growled at. Belting, scruffing, intimidating or in any way being violent towards that pup is not the way to go IMO. I've kept dogs all my life and I'm ancient and can't move as fast as I did, but I have NEVER been bitten or aggressed by any of my dogs, young or old.

 

I don't hit them or forcibly take food from them, and whilst they might growl to warn one of their pack mates away from their bones, I can go to any of my dogs, terriers or lurchers and take the bone off them if I need to.

 

How you do this is just part of establishing a trusting relationship with the dog, right from when it is a pup. Yes, of course you have to establish yourself as pack leader, but the best way to do this is with subtle signals rather than by hitting, scruffing (pushing its face into the floor, I think one person suggested )

 

the right way to go about teaching a pup that you can be near its food without the pup having to growl should be obvious: and there's loads of stuff on the internet about it: start by putting a tiny bit of meat in a bowl, let pup eat that, then put in another tiny bit of meat. Pretty soon pup is really wanting you to be near that bowl as it knows you're going to put more in.

 

Make sure other members of the family do the same thing, including the kids, as young as possible, and if you have toddlers then have them with you when you put the meat in the bowl.

 

Stay near the pup when its eating, but ignore it except to put more food in the bowl. This way is guaranteed to work, BUT I would never leave kids and dogs with food or bones alone together EVER. A dog should be allowed to eat in peace, and if it has a bone that is likely to last a long time then cage, kennel the dog so it cannot be disturbed.

 

Yes, the dog should know that it is at the bottom of the human pack, babies and toddlers included, but it is unfair on any dog to have to put up with kids disturbing it and maybe taking its food. House dogs in households with little kids have to put up with a lot in day to day life: being tripped over, trodden, messed about with etc. I would always make sure the dog or pup has a safe place to retreat to when it wants to rest and sleep or chew a bone. Somewhere the kids don't have access to or can't get into. Its only fair on the dog.

 

Even the best trained dogs are still dogs at the end of the day, but I will say that people with badly brought up kids usually don't make good dog trainers: read into that what you will!