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#16 Mr_Logic

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:40 pm

back to the 22rf and 223

my local gun shop says its an open ticket so i dont need aproval from the fire arms department if i have new land to shoot on, because it DOSENT say "as approved by the Firearms department""
but on my licence it says "permission to shoot with this class of firearm"
is that the farmer giving me permission to use a 223 on his land? like "no problem drive your land rover over my field" or " no just use your 22rf, i dont like the bang of your 223"
or is the farming telling me that the land has been passed for a 223 and he gives me permission

confusing

Steyr, Are you happy that some bloke down the gunshop knows what your firearms department means by its conditions? Would it not be better to ask your FEO and get the full and complete information you need?

My FAC states:
"6. The 6.5x55mm Rifle and 6.5x55 Sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for deer/fox control and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot"

That is the position of West Mercia, why not ask what your police authorities position is. Then you will be safe. I can guarantee you that if you are prosecuted, the chap down the gunshops advice will count for very little in court.

What is written on your FAC has nothing to do with any farmer, why would you think it has?

ft

You don't have an open ticket. That is why your FEO said what he said.

My FAC says "The <rifles> and ammunition/sound moderators shall be used for SHOOTING <DEER/VERMIN/FOX as applicable> and zeroing on ranges and land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot."

Note the LACK fo the key phrase "deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police ..."

As per usual, this comes back to the WORDING on your FAC. It does NOT come down to the interpretation of the law by a Firearms Department.

If your FAC is CLOSED, i.e. you DO have the phrase, then in order to verify that the land is deemed suitable you have to check with them and it be on file. If you don't, how do you KNOW that the land is deemed suitable? Simple answer, you don't, and that means that if you shoot there without checking, then you are in breach of the terms of your Firearm Certificate and you can be prosecuted. NOTE: if you were to shoot over land in this example, breach of FAC conditions is the ONLY offence you could have committed.

If your FAC is OPEN, i.e. you DON'T have the phrase, then it matters not a jot what the Firearms Department thinks the law is. They do NOT make up the law, contrary to what some of them think. They simply do the licensing and enforce the law. If any Firearms Department tried to prosecute someone for being in breach of FAC conditions, when they've shot over land where they are authorised to shoot, and hold an Open FAC, then any lawyer will have that dismissed in about 5 minutes.

Where the Authorities do have control is over the issuance of an Open FAC. They don't have to issue one, although almost all do, simply because it makes their lives easier. The simple fact is that if you get an inept licensing department you're screwed, and THAT is the real problem here.

#17 Mr_Logic

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:48 pm

A first FAC is usually restricted and the owner may only use his rifle on land specified or approved by the police for that calibre weapon.

An EXPERIENCED FAC holder may be granted an ‘open licence’ which means you can use the rifle anywhere that YOU judge it to be safe and appropriate, WITHIN THE LAW.


i have 3 guns on my fac, point 6 7 and 8 listed below
6 22rf.................. on any suitable land over which the holder of this certificate has permission to shoot with this class of firearm............
7 the firearms and ammunition shall be used for target shooting on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate finacial arrangements in place to meet any injury and damage claim.
8 223 basiclly the same as 22rf

there is no mention of my 270, where can i use this? do you think point 7 relates to this? does this mean i need to be in a club?


Where have you been using the .270?

What were your reasons for having this calibre?



target shooting at the range, on my first cert, which it stipulated (as at the time i didnt have land to stalk).

on renwal, no mention on this cert apart from whats above.

270 is my old gun i had (and imported) when i lived in SA there i didnt need to stipulate as such, it was just used for hunting or target in south africa.

back to the 22rf and 223

my local gun shop says its an open ticket so i dont need aproval from the fire arms department if i have new land to shoot on, because it DOSENT say "as approved by the Firearms department""
but on my licence it says "permission to shoot with this class of firearm"
is that the farmer giving me permission to use a 223 on his land? like "no problem drive your land rover over my field" or " no just use your 22rf, i dont like the bang of your 223"
or is the farming telling me that the land has been passed for a 223 and he gives me permission

confusing

Steyr, again, you need to take literally the wording on your Firearm Certificate. If it says "Suitable land" and not "deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police", then you can simply argue the land is suitable, and there is no way you could lose that argument. No implications are made that anyone specific has to deem it suitable, and therefore they would have a very hard time making it stick in court.

I think your Firearms Department is simply covering its arse. For example, my ticket simply says as I previously posted. Which means if I like, I can shoot the 308 in the garden, so long as I comply with other laws such as public highways and the bullet not leaving my land (both of which I can do).

In your example, you would have considerably less argument to say that your garden was suitable for anything much beyond a rimfire, and likely nothing at all. I think they might just want some comeback. Or, more likely, they've just worded it differently for the hell of it.

Either way, your 22 and 223 are open IMO.

All that said, just because they'd lose a court case doesn't mean that they wouldn't try it, so worth a phone call - it'll only cost you 20p to be sure!

#18 steyr223

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 07:09 am

back to the 22rf and 223

my local gun shop says its an open ticket so i dont need aproval from the fire arms department if i have new land to shoot on, because it DOSENT say "as approved by the Firearms department""
but on my licence it says "permission to shoot with this class of firearm"
is that the farmer giving me permission to use a 223 on his land? like "no problem drive your land rover over my field" or " no just use your 22rf, i dont like the bang of your 223"
or is the farming telling me that the land has been passed for a 223 and he gives me permission

confusing

Steyr, Are you happy that some bloke down the gunshop knows what your firearms department means by its conditions? Would it not be better to ask your FEO and get the full and complete information you need?

My FAC states:
"6. The 6.5x55mm Rifle and 6.5x55 Sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for deer/fox control and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot"

That is the position of West Mercia, why not ask what your police authorities position is. Then you will be safe. I can guarantee you that if you are prosecuted, the chap down the gunshops advice will count for very little in court.

What is written on your FAC has nothing to do with any farmer, why would you think it has?

ft

I did try the FEO but 3.10 pm they were closed, oh for a job like that. will try again today.

as for the gun shop owner, since he has been in the business for 30 years you would expect him to know a dam site more than me, and he does, but you are CORRECT. he will not be standing up for me in court. as this is such a complex issue and i have learnt a little more, i will take the advice off a guy i dont know, off a forum that i have not long joined and call my FEO. and get the facts.

as for the farmer (land owner ect), he is giving me the permission to shoot on his land! so without him i dont have a good reason, but i understand what you are getting at, but as i said, in my conditions it says "................................permission to shoot with this class of firearm from the person by whom shooting rights are owned, leased or otherwise obtained" so who is giving that authority for the "Class"
me as an open ticket holder (which is what i was led to beleave i was getting)
the land owner because he has had the land checked and passed for the "class" of firearm (i hope not)
Or the FEO (which means i do not have an "open ticket")

like i said its not clear and thanks to this forum, i will get it checked ASAP to be sure, and i will let you all know!


got to go work calls
cheers

steyr

#19 Mr_Logic

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 07:51 am

Steyr, can you please put down the whole wording of your condition, as this reads very strangely to me...

#20 flytie

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 09:12 am

You don't have an open ticket. That is why your FEO said what he said.

My FAC says "The <rifles> and ammunition/sound moderators shall be used for SHOOTING <DEER/VERMIN/FOX as applicable> and zeroing on ranges and land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot."

Note the LACK fo the key phrase "deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police ..."

As per usual, this comes back to the WORDING on your FAC. It does NOT come down to the interpretation of the law by a Firearms Department.

If your FAC is CLOSED, i.e. you DO have the phrase, then in order to verify that the land is deemed suitable you have to check with them and it be on file. If you don't, how do you KNOW that the land is deemed suitable? Simple answer, you don't, and that means that if you shoot there without checking, then you are in breach of the terms of your Firearm Certificate and you can be prosecuted. NOTE: if you were to shoot over land in this example, breach of FAC conditions is the ONLY offence you could have committed.

If your FAC is OPEN, i.e. you DON'T have the phrase, then it matters not a jot what the Firearms Department thinks the law is. They do NOT make up the law, contrary to what some of them think. They simply do the licensing and enforce the law. If any Firearms Department tried to prosecute someone for being in breach of FAC conditions, when they've shot over land where they are authorised to shoot, and hold an Open FAC, then any lawyer will have that dismissed in about 5 minutes.

Where the Authorities do have control is over the issuance of an Open FAC. They don't have to issue one, although almost all do, simply because it makes their lives easier. The simple fact is that if you get an inept licensing department you're screwed, and THAT is the real problem here.

Mr L, Your statement is at odds with the policy of West Mercia Police. Mine is what they, not you, class as an open ticket. I am afraid that you are wrong about the interpretation of the law. All police authorities have the capability in law of introducing conditions and stipulations of their own choosing to apply to FAC's that they grant.

Of the six other FAC's I have been able to look at so far, all of which are worded the same, all the recipients were told that they were open certificates. I will make further investigations to see if they are not telling the truth.

ft

#21 Mr_Logic

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:03 am

You don't have an open ticket. That is why your FEO said what he said.

My FAC says "The <rifles> and ammunition/sound moderators shall be used for SHOOTING <DEER/VERMIN/FOX as applicable> and zeroing on ranges and land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot."

Note the LACK fo the key phrase "deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police ..."

As per usual, this comes back to the WORDING on your FAC. It does NOT come down to the interpretation of the law by a Firearms Department.

If your FAC is CLOSED, i.e. you DO have the phrase, then in order to verify that the land is deemed suitable you have to check with them and it be on file. If you don't, how do you KNOW that the land is deemed suitable? Simple answer, you don't, and that means that if you shoot there without checking, then you are in breach of the terms of your Firearm Certificate and you can be prosecuted. NOTE: if you were to shoot over land in this example, breach of FAC conditions is the ONLY offence you could have committed.

If your FAC is OPEN, i.e. you DON'T have the phrase, then it matters not a jot what the Firearms Department thinks the law is. They do NOT make up the law, contrary to what some of them think. They simply do the licensing and enforce the law. If any Firearms Department tried to prosecute someone for being in breach of FAC conditions, when they've shot over land where they are authorised to shoot, and hold an Open FAC, then any lawyer will have that dismissed in about 5 minutes.

Where the Authorities do have control is over the issuance of an Open FAC. They don't have to issue one, although almost all do, simply because it makes their lives easier. The simple fact is that if you get an inept licensing department you're screwed, and THAT is the real problem here.

Mr L, Your statement is at odds with the policy of West Mercia Police. Mine is what they, not you, class as an open ticket. I am afraid that you are wrong about the interpretation of the law. All police authorities have the capability in law of introducing conditions and stipulations of their own choosing to apply to FAC's that they grant.

Of the six other FAC's I have been able to look at so far, all of which are worded the same, all the recipients were told that they were open certificates. I will make further investigations to see if they are not telling the truth.

ft


Flytie, if West Mercia are issuing FACs with the condition about the Chief Officer of Police, and calling them Open, then that's their business. However, for the rest of us, an Open ticket is one which is worded as I have already posted.

West Mercia are actually wrong, but that as I say is their business.

Regarding the Interpretation of the Law, I am actually right. Firearms Authorities CANNOT make up the law, BUT the law allows them to add Conditions to the Grant of an FAC and those conditions are legally binding.

If your Firearm Certificate says that you need land to be deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police, then it is CLOSED, in the commonly accepted wording. AND, as I already said, if you shoot over land you've not referred to the Firearms Dept, then you are in breach of your FAC conditions, and that is an offence.

My OPEN FAC, which simply says that I must have lawful authority to shoot, does not have the restrictive wording, and thus I can shoot where I like.

The difference is semantics, and unfortunately the various Firearms Authorities have been granted legal right to word FACs how they see fit, and to impose such conditions as they see fit. However, there is a big difference between this and having their own interpretation of the law.

#22 riohog

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:13 am

ye is what your saying mine is open the decissions where to use my rifles are mine


providing i have the authority to do so by whoever owns rents or leases the land and iuse them within the conditions they were issued for



deer fox ground game vermin ect

#23 CharlieT

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:47 am

The question of additional conditions added to a fac is covered by appendix 3 in the HO guidelines. The HO published these guidelines for the police to ensure that there was consistency between licensing constabularies.

If your licensing department is deviating wildly from these guidelines you should write to your chief constable and ask why your fac does not comply with HO guidelines.

For information I quote from the guidelines the relevant section regarding open/closed conditions.

1. Quarry Shooting (for vermin, fox
or deer)
• The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/
SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND
MODERATOR and ammunition shall be
used for shooting vermin and ground
game/fox/deer (delete as appropriate) and
for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed
suitable by the chief officer of police for the area
where the land is situated and over which the
holder has lawful authority to shoot.

(The words in italics may be omitted once
the certificate holder has demonstrated
competence. There is no set time for this
and each case should be considered on its
individual merits.)
................................................................................
..

Hope this helps

Charlie

Edited by CharlieT, 10 June 2009 - 11:47 am.


#24 flytie

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 01:18 pm

For information I quote from the guidelines the relevant section regarding open/closed conditions.

1. Quarry Shooting (for vermin, fox
or deer)
• The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/
SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND
MODERATOR and ammunition shall be
used for shooting vermin and ground
game/fox/deer (delete as appropriate) and
for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed
suitable by the chief officer of police for the area
where the land is situated and over which the
holder has lawful authority to shoot.

(The words in italics may be omitted once
the certificate holder has demonstrated
competence. There is no set time for this
and each case should be considered on its
individual merits.)
................................................................................
..Hope this helps
Charlie

Charlie, many thanks for that. It explains a lot to me. And poses some questions over what we have been told.

atb, ft

#25 steyr223

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 02:23 pm

Steyr, can you please put down the whole wording of your condition, as this reads very strangely to me...


Mr Logic.

No Need as i have called my FEO, he says what you said. (and my gun shop) that if your licence reads WITHOUT the phrase "land deemed
suitable by the chief officer of police" then it is my responsibility for where i shoot. i.e "its an open licence"

if it says "land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police" within the conditions of your certificate then you HAVE to get permission by them to shoot on the said land.
end of story.............. for me anyway, thank you North Wales Firearms department.

so i have an open ticket for my 22rf, 223, and 270 for ranges only (at the moment) he said if i have land and want to shoot deer they will do an amendment to allow me to do this (after speaking, and accepting i am capable etc ect)

thank you all.
steyr :)

#26 cyclonebri1

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 02:58 pm

Steyr, can you please put down the whole wording of your condition, as this reads very strangely to me...


Mr Logic.

No Need as i have called my FEO, he says what you said. (and my gun shop) that if your licence reads WITHOUT the phrase "land deemed
suitable by the chief officer of police" then it is my responsibility for where i shoot. i.e "its an open licence"

if it says "land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police" within the conditions of your certificate then you HAVE to get permission by them to shoot on the said land.
end of story.............. for me anyway, thank you North Wales Firearms department.

so i have an open ticket for my 22rf, 223, and 270 for ranges only (at the moment) he said if i have land and want to shoot deer they will do an amendment to allow me to do this (after speaking, and accepting i am capable etc ect)

thank you all.
steyr http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

Which is what I said much earlier on :clapper:

#27 steven price

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 03:19 pm

hi guys,
i have only had my licences a few week and when i showed it at the gun club they told me it was a open ticket, unsure of this i called the powers that be and was told flat that if you see the words "land deemed suitible by the Chief Officer of Police" then it is a closed ticket.

regards steve

#28 the Verminator

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 05:03 pm

back to the 22rf and 223

my local gun shop says its an open ticket so i dont need aproval from the fire arms department if i have new land to shoot on, because it DOSENT say "as approved by the Firearms department""
but on my licence it says "permission to shoot with this class of firearm"
is that the farmer giving me permission to use a 223 on his land? like "no problem drive your land rover over my field" or " no just use your 22rf, i dont like the bang of your 223"
or is the farming telling me that the land has been passed for a 223 and he gives me permission

confusing

Steyr, Are you happy that some bloke down the gunshop knows what your firearms department means by its conditions? Would it not be better to ask your FEO and get the full and complete information you need?

My FAC states:
"6. The 6.5x55mm Rifle and 6.5x55 Sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for deer/fox control and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot"

That is the position of West Mercia, why not ask what your police authorities position is. Then you will be safe. I can guarantee you that if you are prosecuted, the chap down the gunshops advice will count for very little in court.

What is written on your FAC has nothing to do with any farmer, why would you think it has?

ft


your 6.5 aint open if it is worded like that, its the same as my .22 as i aint had a FAC all that long and its 'closed'.

#29 flytie

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:04 pm

your 6.5 aint open if it is worded like that, its the same as my .22 as i aint had a FAC all that long and its 'closed'.

Thanks, I agree, what I thought was right, being told by my FEO that it was open, was wrong :oops: . After my conversation with him (FEO) this evening I am somewhat wiser. I have no other restrictions, like having a mentor etc., which West Mercia normally insist on, which is the best he was prepared to do at the time. If i ask either at renewal, or after two years they will re-evaluate. This has really peeved the five others who were given the impression they had open certificates. Sorry to all, i am suitably chastened :duh:

ft

#30 David Dey

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 03:28 pm

hi guys,
i have only had my licences a few week and when i showed it at the gun club they told me it was a open ticket, unsure of this i called the powers that be and was told flat that if you see the words "land deemed suitible by the Chief Officer of Police" then it is a closed ticket.

regards steve


Quite right, an open ticket gives you the decision regarding if it is safe and no mention of Chief Constables will be on it. Any mention of Chief Constables gives them the decision and it will be closed. I don't know of anyone who has been granted an open certificate on first application, here in West Yorkshire you need to wait at least 18 months.

Dry Powder


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